Schroder LT x Kuzma 4 point x Graham Elite x SME V-12

Which of these tonearms is the best?


  • Total voters
    49

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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IMHO the preference is due mostly to turntable and cartridge. Although I do not have direct experience with most of the tonearms referred in the poll I own a Graham, a SMEV and the Forsell linear air bearing. The Van den Hul Black Beauty loves the Forsell, the Sumiko Palo Santos the SMEV and the Benz LP was my choice in the Graham.
 

BruceD

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Dec 13, 2013
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BruceD,

Thank you! I may be mistaken, but I understood you heard both the Kuzma 4 Point and the Graham Elite and you preferred the Kuzma 4 Point in nearly all sonic parameters. This is useful info.

Did you hear the Schroder LT? If you did, what would be its positives and negatives vs the Kuzma 4 Point?

Hi Again, I think you must understand we can all argue the semantics on these facts--however the point remains we all have abject, or object impressions that tend to remain from any observation relating to sonic presentation, which of course is

regulated to a degree by any ancillary equipment--so one pice of equipment cannot be held entirely responsible for the performance en masse-bear that in mind when absorbing comments from afar.

You asked these--my answer after hearing the Graham through speakers and headphones on at least 4 occasions--with music I know on both the Techdas and Onedorf TT's --the Kuzma on the Stabi XL2 and Stabi M TT's

my preference on each occasion was categorically for the Kuzma--the sound came more alive and involving--hence my vote for the 4 Point every time.

Re the Schroder-- also superb Arm cannot fault-- yes I've heard it seriously I'd not want to pick it over the 4 Point-- I can say I'd be happy with either in my system.

Just listen of course for yourself--influence down the myriad of choices out there--but YOU ultimately decide your preference

Good Listening

BruceD
 
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Frank750

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Jul 8, 2011
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all of the arms listed are very capable. The more important issue is your phonostage type...ie: tube or SS.

I agree regarding the importance of the phono stage but I think you're being a bit unfair in your blanket statement of solid state phono pre amps. Especially since you're comparing a $32,000 Allnic to a $10,000 XP25. Although, I'm listening to a Sim Audio Moon 810LP (solid state) right now and it's blowing the doors off the Pass and it's the same price as the XP25. There are some extremely good solid state units out there.
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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I agree regarding the importance of the phono stage but I think you're being a bit unfair in your blanket statement of solid state phono pre amps. Especially since you're comparing a $32,000 Allnic to a $10,000 XP25. Although, I'm listening to a Sim Audio Moon 810LP (solid state) right now and it's blowing the doors off the Pass and it's the same price as the XP25. There are some extremely good solid state units out there.

Point well taken. For me and what I hear now with my tube rig including it's ability to change it's sound character via a multitude of rectifier tubes...the realistic bloom and decay, bass extension, voluminous soundstage and 3d imaging...I just don't see SS phonostage ever matching that level of sound realism(tubes)....I do recall you being a big fan of the ARC Ref 10 phono before you decided to shift gears back to pass from arc. Hopefully the XS phono will be leaps and bounds above the XP25....in my system, using the xp25 now results in musical disappointment. At this point it will be a back up phono or perhaps I will sell it and put that money towards another tube option like the Lamm, ARC or Vac. You really need two phonostages when you are running two tables with 4 arms.
 

VPN

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Dec 28, 2013
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Hi Again, I think you must understand we can all argue the semantics on these facts--however the point remains we all have abject, or object impressions that tend to remain from any observation relating to sonic presentation, which of course is

regulated to a degree by any ancillary equipment--so one pice of equipment cannot be held entirely responsible for the performance en masse-bear that in mind when absorbing comments from afar.

You asked these--my answer after hearing the Graham through speakers and headphones on at least 4 occasions--with music I know on both the Techdas and Onedorf TT's --the Kuzma on the Stabi XL2 and Stabi M TT's

my preference on each occasion was categorically for the Kozma--the sound came more alive and involving--hence my vote for the 4 Point every time.

Re the Schroder-- also superb Arm cannot fault-- yes I've heard it seriously I'd not want to pick it over the 4 Point-- I can say I'd be happy with either in my system.

Just listen of course for yourself--influence down the myriad of choices out there--but YOU ultimately decide your preference

Good Listening

BruceD

BruceD,


Thank you for sharing your views. It is nice to see several people voting for the Kuzma 4 Point. At the same time, so far I have not heard anything negative said about the Schroder LT, so currently these two seem to be top choices.

Regarding listening for myself, that was easier when I lived in NYC and could have equipment demoed in my system, but now living in Brazil, in practice it is impossible to compare these tonearms in my system. Also, I am now buying my first Vinyl rig in over twenty years, just bought the turntable and phono preamp, and will soon buy the tonearm and cartridge.

I will try to go to CES and some audio dealers and listen to these tonearms, but with different turntables and cartridges (and speakers, amps, preamp, cables, etc) it would be rather difficult to fairly compare tonearms. Consequently I have to gather the opinions from fellow audiophiles and just buy one.

Cheers,

VPN
 

number95

Well-Known Member
May 14, 2014
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BruceD,

Thank you! I may be mistaken, but I understood you heard both the Kuzma 4 Point and the Graham Elite and you preferred the Kuzma 4 Point in nearly all sonic parameters. This is useful info.

Did you hear the Schroder LT? If you did, what would be its positives and negatives vs the Kuzma 4 Point?

VPN, did you have a chance to contact to Altanpsx? After he got his Elite, he sold his Kuzma and told me Elite is far better. I am just the messanger.
 

DEV

New Member
Oct 19, 2011
547
6
0
Some great arms being discussed - I would add DaVinci Master Reference Virtu - every time I have heard always impressed with the sound of the system. I surprised I don't see much mention of it.

I own a Elite which is currently paired up with my AFO but looking for a second arm. A friend who owned a Kuzma replaced it with a Elite arm and conveyed he owned previous Phantom arms and was really impressed with this new design - offers substantial improvements.
 

XV-1

Well-Known Member
May 24, 2010
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Sydney
Some great arms being discussed - I would add DaVinci Master Reference Virtu - every time I have heard always impressed with the sound of the system. I surprised I don't see much mention of it.

I own a Elite which is currently paired up with my AFO but looking for a second arm. A friend who owned a Kuzma replaced it with a Elite arm and conveyed he owned previous Phantom arms and was really impressed with this new design - offers substantial improvements.

Hi Dev

the Davinci tonearms are beautiful and sound like too, I have seen the detachable headshell Virtue in person and is certainly a departure from his older tonearms. Looked great.

Peter Brem the principle of DaVinci unfortunately passed away last year. I am not sure what this means for the future of Davinci and ongoing support etc.
 

Joao@altheamusica

Well-Known Member
Sep 20, 2010
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Hi Dev
the Davinci tonearms are beautiful and sound like too, I have seen the detachable headshell Virtue in person and is certainly a departure from his older tonearms. Looked great.
Peter Brem the principle of DaVinci unfortunately passed away last year. I am not sure what this means for the future of Davinci and ongoing support etc.

Hello

DaVinci is still in business and will support all products they manufcatured. They are working on new analog products - information is available via the Facebook site ...
https://www.facebook.com/davinciaudio.labs.gmbh
 
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XV-1

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May 24, 2010
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Altanpsx

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Sep 10, 2014
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Vpn sorry for the late response. I use(d) and tried kuzma 4 point, graham elite, I had listened ina familiar setups v12(kondo and nonkondo). My experience showed that graham elite is far more better then either sme and kuzma 4point. I cant imagine, in any system this can change. There is no point of comparing arms frequency performance(treeble,bass etc), elite is simply better. I use(d),tried cartridges lyra titan, phasemation pp1000, miyajima kansui, ikeda kai, zyx omega, benz lps. Tt are clearaudio master refernce, statement, techdas airforce 1, kondo, sme 30, dr. Feickert blackbird. I highly suggest to use elite with a nordost odin tonearmcable.

I
 

DEV

New Member
Oct 19, 2011
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Vpn sorry for the late response. I use(d) and tried kuzma 4 point, graham elite, I had listened ina familiar setups v12(kondo and nonkondo). My experience showed that graham elite is far more better then either sme and kuzma 4point. I cant imagine, in any system this can change. There is no point of comparing arms frequency performance(treeble,bass etc), elite is simply better. I use(d),tried cartridges lyra titan, phasemation pp1000, miyajima kansui, ikeda kai, zyx omega, benz lps. Tt are clearaudio master refernce, statement, techdas airforce 1, kondo, sme 30, dr. Feickert blackbird. I highly suggest to use elite with a nordost odin tonearmcable.

I

Hi Altanpsx, were those tables mentioned alL in the same system to do the evolutions - what did the rest of the system consist of - was there a preferred cart when paired up with the Elite and AF0.

I believe more REALLY need to try the Elite in their system - compare and not speculate on previous Phantom designs, Bob says the refinement in this arm by far exceeds his other designs by allot. I currently have a A90 cart installed and I have played around allot with the VTF and have found to be pleasantly surprised how well it tracks at low force. I get more air out of the cart without loosing the bass which was shocking to me - without miss-tracking too. Just lifting up the arm and moving it feels so effortless, it just floats so smoothly - pretty nice indeed.
 

VPN

VIP/Donor
Dec 28, 2013
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Thank you for great messages here and by email (PM)! Many fellow audiophiles who expressed a strong preference for one tonearm over the others by PM have not voted (yet) in the pool or posted here.

Regarding the Kuzma 4 Point versus the Graham Elite, some strong and credible opinions favoring the 4 Point, and some strong and credible opinions favoring the Graham Elite. It seems they are both exceptional tonearms.

I Also got some strong preferences for the Schroder LT, mostly by email, from audiophiles who compared it with either the Kuzma 4 Point or the Graham Elite. It seems that at least these three tonearms are excellent choices.

Cheers,

VPN
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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Vpn sorry for the late response. I use(d) and tried kuzma 4 point, graham elite, I had listened ina familiar setups v12(kondo and nonkondo). My experience showed that graham elite is far more better then either sme and kuzma 4point. I cant imagine, in any system this can change. There is no point of comparing arms frequency performance(treeble,bass etc), elite is simply better. I use(d),tried cartridges lyra titan, phasemation pp1000, miyajima kansui, ikeda kai, zyx omega, benz lps. Tt are clearaudio master refernce, statement, techdas airforce 1, kondo, sme 30, dr. Feickert blackbird. I highly suggest to use elite with a nordost odin tonearmcable.

I

That's quite a job comparing all of those cartridges and arms. From that experience, you should be well qualified to express your opinions about various arms. Could you please describe the comparison of the SME V-12 with the other arms and the conditions under which you made the comparisons? You mention an SME 30 table, but either you mean the SME 30/12 table or you heard the V-12 on a different table.

I've been interested in perhaps adding one of these arms to my SME 30/12 table. Which table did you use to evaluate the V-12 arm, which cartridge did you use and which arms did you compare directly to the V-12? I'd like to understand what you did not like about the V-12 and how you reached your conclusions. I also have a friend who knows my SME 30/12, V-12 combination well and he is considering some of these arms to go along with his Durand Talea on his Technics SP10. Thanks.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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It seems that I am one of the few who like the SME V-12 arm. I have heard the Graham Elite and the Kuzma 4Pt but not in my own system. I don't think I could begin to understand how they sound different from each other, so I don't really feel that I should vote in the poll.

So far, fourteen people have voted in the poll, implying that they have compared the arms under question. Could they please describe which arms they directly compared to the V-12 and under what circumstances? I've very curious to learn what are the shortcomings of the SME 12" arm and specifically in what areas the other arms are superior.
 
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DEV

New Member
Oct 19, 2011
547
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I didn't vote for Graham Elite even though I own because I have not done any direct comparisons to any other arms, I would also like some clarification from others whom have posted preferring a specific arm providing some details outline why.
 

Bruce B

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Apr 25, 2010
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So far, fourteen people have voted in the poll, implying that they have compared the arms under question. Could they please describe which arms they directly compared to the V-12 and under what circumstances? I've very curious to learn what are the shortcomings of the SME 12" arm and specifically in what areas the other arms are superior.

+1... I want to get another arm for my table but I'm undecided between the Graham and Kuzma
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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+1... I want to get another arm for my table but I'm undecided between the Graham and Kuzma

getting a repeatable reference VTA for different thickness records will be much easier with a Graham than the Kuzma. The Kuzma seems to be on par for the most part (According to Fremer) with the Phantom Supreme. That will not be the case with the Elite....the Elite costs a lot more. You can also buy arm wands and have different carts mounted and ready to go with a Graham. That is not the case with Kuzma. The Kuzma does come with a tonearm cable..so there's a bonus point for it.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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getting a repeatable reference VTA for different thickness records will be much easier with a Graham than the Kuzma. The Kuzma seems to be on par for the most part (According to Fremer) with the Phantom Supreme. That will not be the case with the Elite....the Elite costs a lot more. You can also buy arm wands and have different carts mounted and ready to go with a Graham. That is not the case with Kuzma. The Kuzma does come with a tonearm cable..so there's a bonus point for it.

I thought Fremer bought the Kuzma because it outperformed all of the other arms he's tried except the Cobra. Does he also own a Supreme?

That is an interesting point about the captive tonearm cable. So one could not directly compare these arms using the same cartridge, phono cable and turntable. Some people think a captive cable is a negative because of the lack of flexibility.

That aside, how do the Graham and Kuzma sound different?

Another consideration is that the Graham comes in different lengths and each supposedly sounds different. Do the voters in the poll have a favorite length for the Elite?
 

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