Amplifiers for Magico Q7

Roysen · Nov 24, 2014

I am thinking about bi-amplifing my Magico Q7. Normally it would be a no-brainer to use the same amplifier for the top as on the bottum. However if the choice for the amplifier to drive the top was an OTL tube amplifier I think a wise choice would be to use a solid state amplifier for the bottum to be sure that it will be able to drive the Q7 bass satisfactorily.

In this scenario my choice for a tube amp for the top end would be an Atma-Sphere MA2 or MA3. They really sound magical to me. However to use them in a bi-amp configuration with a different amplifier poses some challenges. The main challenge would be the rise time of the Atma-Sphere amplifiers. What solid state amplifier would be able to match that rise time. I have three options on my mind but I have no idea if they will if they will meet the challenge to a degree of satisfaction. I would love some qualified help answering this question. The tree candidates I have come up with are:

- Goldmund Telos 5000 or Telos 3500
- Soulution 701 or 700
- Spectral DMA-400 or DMA-360

KeithR · Nov 24, 2014

I doubt many have played around with bi-amping Q7s here. I would speak directly with Magico or talk to Ralph at Atmasphere if you are deciding to use his amps up top- I would tend to think matching OTLs is extremely difficult.

es347 · Nov 24, 2014

I thought Magico speakers only had one pr of jacks...

EricDH · Nov 25, 2014

Would the (inevitable) difference in gain between different amps not create difficulties?

PeterA · Nov 25, 2014

es347 said:
I thought Magico speakers only had one pr of jacks...

Magico told me that they will build a speaker with dual binding posts for bi-wiring/bi-amping, but it has to be a custom order. They don't recommend this approach because unless the customer knows exactly what he is doing, the end result will be sub optimal. You can read about the incredible lengths owners go to determine amplification options for the Magico Ultimate speakers. No easy task.

Roysen should contact Magico before proceeding, IMO.

Mike Lavigne · Nov 25, 2014

it's pretty simple......coherence is magnitudes more significant than power or tone. first, eliminate discontinuities. just like the idea of getting the first watt right is important. the music lives in getting the simple things right first.

it's why small 2-way monitors can suck us in so easily. they simply avoid complication so well.

mixing multiple topography amplifiers on a speaker and crossover designed for one amp is risky and relying on luck to hit the mark. it's possible but likely the path to frustration. you might end up with some sort of outboard crossover or EQ to get it to work. not a trivial endeavor. and no doubt your expectations are very very high.

just the simple process of getting the gain offset exactly perfectly correct will require an additional preamplifier step and eliminate many preamp choices. and that is just gain.

CKKeung · Nov 25, 2014

Roysen said:
I am thinking about bi-amplifing my Magico Q7. Normally it would be a no-brainer to use the same amplifier for the top as on the bottum. However if the choice for the amplifier to drive the top was an OTL tube amplifier I think a wise choice would be to use a solid state amplifier for the bottum to be sure that it will be able to drive the Q7 bass satisfactorily.
In this scenario my choice for a tube amp for the top end would be an Atma-Sphere MA2 or MA3. They really sound magical to me. However to use them in a bi-amp configuration with a different amplifier poses some challenges. The main challenge would be the rise time of the Atma-Sphere amplifiers. What solid state amplifier would be able to match that rise time. I have three options on my mind but I have no idea if they will if they will meet the challenge to a degree of satisfaction. I would love some qualified help answering this question. The tree candidates I have come up with are:
- Goldmund Telos 5000 or Telos 3500
- Soulution 701 or 700
- Spectral DMA-400 or DMA-360

Hi Royen,

Horizontal biamp has a pitfall of losing coherence of the upper and lower frequencies, particularly if done with different amps.

CK

FrantzM · Nov 25, 2014

Mike Lavigne said:
it's pretty simple......coherence is magnitudes more significant than power or tone. first, eliminate discontinuities. just like the idea of getting the first watt right is important. the music lives in getting the simple things right first.

it's why small 2-way monitors can suck us in so easily. they simply avoid complication so well.

mixing multiple topography amplifiers on a speaker and crossover designed for one amp is risky and relying on luck to hit the mark. it's possible but likely the path to frustration. you might end up with some sort of outboard crossover or EQ to get it to work. not a trivial endeavor. and no doubt your expectations are very very high.

just the simple process of getting the gain offset exactly perfectly correct will require an additional preamplifier step and eliminate many preamp choices. and that is just gain.

Agree some with you. +0.85

Since Roysen seems to favor these uber High End (read: "Dear") products, why not the monster Boulder monos and be done?

CKKeung · Nov 25, 2014

FrantzM said:
Agree some with you. +0.85

Since Roysen seems to favor these uber High End (read: "Dear") products, why not the monster Boulder monos and be done?

I suggest the new Trinity Poweramp, maybe in bridged mode if budget allows!

es347 · Nov 25, 2014

I would assume that whoever designs Magico crossovers goes to great lengths to assure coherence. Introducing an external crossover could screw the coherence up dramatically...IMUO..(In My Uninformed Opinion)..

microstrip · Nov 25, 2014

IMHO we do choose an amplifier for a speaker, we must think about the whole system. What source and preamplifier are you currently considering?

asiufy · Nov 25, 2014

I'd just get a pair of darTZeel 458s and be done with it.
From what I've heard of the stereo 108 on a pair of Q7s, the 458s will be more than enough...

alexandre

number95 · Nov 26, 2014

Mike Lavigne said:
it's pretty simple......coherence is magnitudes more significant than power or tone. first, eliminate discontinuities. just like the idea of getting the first watt right is important. the music lives in getting the simple things right first.

it's why small 2-way monitors can suck us in so easily. they simply avoid complication so well.

+1

Roysen · Nov 26, 2014

Thanks for all the good advice. This is not easy. The thought behind doing this is as follows. To get the Magico Q7 to play tonally according to my taste it needs careful amplifier selection. I would probably need to add a little warmth and tonal "fullness" to meet my priorities. A tube amplifier would fit the matk best and preferably a SET or OTL amplifier. Of those types of amplifiers LAMMs SETs (ML3) or Atma-Spheres OTLs (MA-3) seems to fit the mark well. I do however suspect that none of them will be able to drive the Q7 4 Ohm nominell impedance bass very well. So if I want to choose one of them I need to choose a different amplifier for the bass. So that is where I am standing. I am not entirely sure the LAMM ML3 will be able to drive the Q7 midbass either, so Atma-Sphere MA-3 or MA-2 might be the best choice to acheive what I want with the top of the Q7. To match the rise time of the Atma-Spheres I would probably consider Soulution 701 as the best choice and it does play phenomenal bass. However as Mike so correctly explained the most important aspects is how homogenous the first few watts will be and there is no guarantees in regards to how homogenous that combination might be. My second choice would be to go for a darTZeel NHB-458 alone or a bi-amp configuration of darTZeel NHB-458 and Dynaudio Arbiter. Third choice option would be Dynaudio Arbiter alone, but then I would definetly sacrifice the tonal fullness I am looking for. An alternative to bi-amp with a tube amplifier on top would be to choose a very neutral amplifier and change the plan I now have for linestage to an option with the tonal character I am looking for. I am however so fond of all the attributes of my current choice so that is not a tempting option to me. In regards to gainmatching between the two bi-amped amplifiers, I am hoping for some custom adaptions from the manufacturers. I am also hoping for a custom phonostage to match the impedance of the cartridge (standard version will not). The reason why the Burmester 069 is added to the 111 when the combination is used just as a musicserver is that I believe the DAC in the 069 is better when it is used with the Reference Line PSU of the 069. So I will not used the DAC section or linestage section of the 111. Similarily I will not use the phono section of the Lyra Connoisseur 3.0.

The rest of the system will hopefully be like this.

CD-Player:
MBL 1621A
MBL 1611F
Accuphase PS-1220

SACD-Player:
Soulution 746
Combak Harmonix Reimyo ALS-777

DVD-Video, DVD-Audio & Blu-Ray Player (Audio only):
Metronome Technologie Kalista Ultimate SE
Metronome Technologie Naausica DAC
APL NWO Master Transport
APL DAC-M DAC
APL DSR Master Transport
APL DSD Master DAC
GTE Audio Trinity DAC Mk.II
Silver Circle Audio Tchaik 6.0

Musicserver:
Burmester 111
Burmester 069 w/Ref Line PSU
Burmester 948

Turntable:
Clearaudio Statement Turntable
Clearaudio Statement TT-1 Tonearm
Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement
Absolare Bybee

Phonostage:
Qualia Indigo Reference (Hopefully custom-matched to the Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement cartridge)
Bybee Technologies Stealth Purifier

Linestage:
Lyra Connoisseur 3.0 (Hopefully gain-matched to the chosen amplifiers)
Trafomatic Audio 3000

Ground Conditioner:
4x Granite Audio Ground Zero

Loudspeakers:
Magico Q7

Subwoofers:
2x Magico QSub-18

Rack will be Finite Elemente Emperor Active with Stillpoints feet to all components. I might add Herzan or Halcyonics active vibration platforms to all transports in the rack (MBL, Soulution, APL and Burmester) but that needs to tried first. Cables will be all Siltech and Kharma. Power cords will be a mix of different brands matched to each component. Power conditioning will be one power conditioner to each source component and low power component (CD-Player, SACD-Player, DVD & BD-Player, Musicserver, Turntable, Phonostage and Linestage) matched to each component. So MBL 1621A and MBL 1611A will share a carefully matched set of power cords and power conditioner. The Soulution 746 will use a carefully matched power cord and power conditioner. The Burmester 111 and Burmester 069 will share a carefully matched set of power cords and power conditioner. And so on.... The reason for doing it this way will become more evident later when I have explained how the power system for the systems has been solved. Additionally since my plans include three systems I will install s common power system and a common server system for music files for all three systems. I will explain this in more detail in the thread the Dynaudio Arbiters are here.

Edit: I just added my preliminary thoughts on the choice of power conditioners to easier show what I mean. This system is just one of three systems, so if you think other power conditioners or components are better, chances are they will be in the other systems.

The other systems will hopefully be like this.

CD-Player:
Orpheus Labs Heritage Transport
Orpheus Labs Heritage DAC Mk.III
2x Isoclean PT-3030G IV
Isoclean 80A3

SACD-Player:
CH Precision D1 SACD Transport
CH Precision X1 Power Supply
CH Precision Rubidium Master Clock
2x CH Precision C1 Mono DAC
2x CH Precision X1 Power Supply
PS Audio P10 Power Plant
PS Audio Perfect Power Base

DVD-Video, DVD-Audio & Blu-Ray Player (Audio only):
Constellation Audio Sirius (Still hoping it will be released as first specified)
Isotek EVO3 Genesis

Musicserver:
Light Harmonic Sire The Source
Light Harmonic Sire Streamer
Light Harmonic Sire Dual DAC
Gigawatt PC-4 EVO

Turntable:
Continuum Audio Labs Caliburn
Continuum Audio Labs Castellon
Continuum Audio Labs Cobra
Koetsu Coralstone Platinum w/Diamond cantilever upgrade
McIntosh MCP-1500

Phonostage:
Constellation Audio Orion (Still hoping it will be released as first specified)
Synergistic Research PowerCell 10 UEF

Linestage:
Tidal Audio La Assoluta Preamplifier
Trafomatic Audio 3000

Crossover:
Tidal Audio La Assoluta LPX
Equi=Tech Model 10RQE

Ground Conditioner:
EntreQ Audio Atlantis Tellus
4x EntreQ Audio Tellus Silver

Amplifiers:
6x Tidal Audio La Assoluta Mono Amplifiers

Loudspeakers:
Tidal Audio La Assoluta

CD-Player:
Wadia 971 w/GNSC Statement modification
Wadia 931 w/GNSC Statement modification
2x Wadia 922SC w/GNSC Statement modification
Shunyata Research Hydra Typhon
Shunyata Research Hydra Triton

SACD-Player:
Esoteric Grandioso P1
Esoteric G-01
2x Esoteric Grandioso D1
Audience Adept Response aR12-TS

DVD-Video, DVD-Audio & Blu-Ray Player (Audio only):
MSB Technology Signature Ultimate Media Transport
MSB Technology Diamond Transport Power Base
MSB Technology Signature Data IV Transport
MSB Technology Diamond Transport Power Base
MSB Technology Stereo ADC w/FemtoSecond Galaxy Clock & USB Adaptor
MSB Technology Diamond Power Base
MSB Technology Diamond DAC IV Plus w/FemtoSecond Galaxy Clock & USB2 Signature Input & Pro I2S Input & Renderer Input
MSB Technology Diamond Power Base
Goldmund AC Curator

Musicserver:
Audeeva Conbrio Server
Audeeva Conbrio PCM Streamer
Audeeva Conbrio DSD Streamer
Audeeva Conbrio Power Supply
Audeeva Metronomo Caesium Master Clock
Audeeva Metronomo Power Supply
dCS Vivaldi Transport
dCS Vivaldi Upsampler
dCs Vivaldi Master Clock
dCS Vivaldi D/A Converter
Audio Magic Oracle Liquid Air

Turntable:
Rockport Technologies System III Sirius Turntable
Rockport Technologies System III Sirius Tonearm
Lyra Olympos
Running Springs Audio Dimitri

Phonostage:
FM Acoustics Resolution Series 223
FM Acoustics Resolution Series 203
HMS Elektronik Energia Definitiva

Linestage:
FM Acoustics Resolution Series 268-C
Tripoint Audio Emperor AC

Crossover:
Rockport Technologies Arrakis 2 Crossover
2x FM Acoustics Resolution Series 334

Ground Conditioner:
Tripoint Audio Emperor Ground

Amplifiers:
FM Acoustics Resolution Series 118
Goldmund Telos 5000
Master Audio Systems Helius

Loudspeakers:
Rockport Technologies Arrakis II

Subwoofers:
2x Wilson Audio Thor's Hammer

EricDH · Nov 26, 2014

Wow, what a system... can only dream of that.

Only, if you have to "voice" the speaker with different amps to suit your taste, is the Q7 really the right speaker for you? Or am I asking a stupid question now (as not being a die-hard audiophile)?

Roysen · Nov 26, 2014

EricDH said:
Wow, what a system... can only dream of that.

Only, if you have to "voice" the speaker with different amps to suit your taste, is the Q7 really the right speaker for you? Or am I asking a stupid question now (as not being a die-hard audiophile)?

It is a good question, but it is not so much about voicing the speakers as it is about voicing an entire system. It is really important to voice the amplifier / loudspeaker combination to suite your taste even if the speakers sounds very mjch the way you like them because the amplifiers will add their sonic signature and change the overall signature.

PeterA · Nov 26, 2014

Roysen said:
This is not easy. The thought behind doing this is as follows. To get the Magico Q7 to play tonally according to my taste it needs careful amplifier selection. I would probably need to add a little warmth and tonal "fullness" to meet my priorities.

That is quite a list of components. And as I recall from your other thread, this is only one of your three equally ambitious ultra systems, each having separate analog and digital sources. I am unclear about whether or not you already own these systems, or if they are just ideas at this point. Regardless, it has been my experience that when you buy a very neutral speaker like the Q7, you will be hearing the upstream components and the interaction with the room much more than any character that the speaker has.

I would select a very neutral amplifier that is capable of driving/controlling the Q7 and one that also contributes very little of its own sound to the presentation. I have found that you can adjust for "a little warmth and tonal 'fullness'" simply through speaker and listener placement or a careful selection of cables, cartridge or DAC. Do you really want to color your sound through trying to match different amplifiers? Have you discussed your plans with Magico or contacted any other Q7 owners who have tried bi-amping these speakers?

audioarcher · Nov 26, 2014

Have you tried the Atma-Sphere MA-3's by themselves on the Q-7's yet? They are really powerful and if there is a tube amp that can do it, it would be the MA-3's. Here are the specs.

SPECIFICATIONS
500 watts/channel, 2-16 ohms
Bandwidth 1-100KHz within .5 db
IM distortion: 0.04% at full power
Input impedance 100K single-ended, 200K balanced, selectable to 600 ohms
Output section risetime 600V/microsecond
1/4 Farad of power storage capacity per channel- the most of any production amplifier!.
The power supply chassis is 21? wide, 34? long and 12.5? high. Weight: 152 lbs.
The amplifier chassis is 21? wide, 31.5? long and 15? high. Weight: 80 lbs.

If that does not work you could try crossing over the Q18 subs higher up to cover more of the bass.

awsmone · Nov 27, 2014

Hi think the atmaspheres are wonderful

though a lot lot lot of heat .....

But if you like the fuller sound consider the Soulution 501 as this has virtually no negative feedback 0.1db and so acts more like a SET with 6000 watts instantaneous power!!!
and amazing bass as per J Valin and my own listening

The other to consider is Devialet 800 which i thought was wonderful in multi amp active system, and Jeff Fritz loved with Q7 !

PMC101 · Nov 27, 2014

To find an amplifier that has the tonality of a Tube and the Power & Authority of an Solid State is difficult. However after hearing the New Siltech SAGA system on Wilson Audio Alexias and Magico S5s I think it does brilliantly in finding a happy medium between the two. Therefore I would recommend Bi-Amping with the Saga Power Amplifiers. This would mean using One V1 and a pair of P1 stereo amplifiers.

BTW I am just an Enthusiast I have no link to Siltech. I personally have Constellation Audio Equipment on Magico S3s.

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