Cable burn-in: Is it real or imagined?

nothing like $1,000 boxes to burn in cables

i fail to find the allure of cabling and its trials and tribulations, but to each their own. i was just reading last night where Odin power cable costs more than the amp it's recommended for. ???

Speedskater said:

That only works with DC current.

And then only under open circuit conditions.

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Ouf! Thanks Speedskater !!

DaveC said:

Yes, if you move a cable it can take from a few hours to a few days to settle down again. When shipping a fully burnt-in cable I have found it has a bit of harshness or edge to it for a few hours that is very obvious. However, it doesn't take nearly as long to re-break-in as it did when new, usually not longer than a couple days.

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ookay! So what happens when it moves with the music playing? ... 'cause move it does and a few to several times in one second ... So it never settles?

You want a straight answer ???

To speak with the phrase of professor dumbledore in the The deathly hallows part 2 , Harry potter .
when harry asks; Is this true or is it only inside my head professor ?
Dumbledore replays ; off course its true when its inside youre head harry

FrantzM said:

ookay! So what happens when it moves with the music playing? ... 'cause move it does and a few to several times in one second ... So it never settles?

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Don't run the cables right in front of your bass ports and it should be ok

If you're talking about microvibrations you may have a point, they do effect our systems in many ways. Cables should have some mechanical damping as we do with our components and speakers imo.

DaveC said:

Don't run the cables right in front of your bass ports and it should be ok

If you're talking about microvibrations you may have a point, they do effect our systems in many ways. Cables should have some mechanical damping as we do with our components and speakers imo.

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And what to say of the cables inside the woofer cabinets and the crossover which usually resides in there?
I sincerely believe that we are over-reaching there... I remember back in my youth there was a mention that the flap of a butterfly wing could not have any effect on the orbit of Jupiter,same here .. We are not able to reliably perceive 0.5 dB, let alone those 0.000001% change that occurs in the electrical characteristics of a cable, when it moves. yet we keep on proclaiming that we do hear the differences. When the knowledge is removed and we fall flat back on earth, then we claim the experience not valid ... If it helps you enjoy your music By all means do keep your cables warm, in a Faraday Cage and in a dark room ... and on a vibraplane to reduce all vibrations.. Somewhere you know it couldn't make a difference but the FOMA is strong so .... better believe and that, staunchly

So Frantz, here is my question to you.

If we start considering quantum physics and get down to the molecular level would you at least consider that due to whatever burn in process is done there could be changes at the molecular level such that there are pathways created within the cable that allows it to anneal at both ends and make for a better signal path. I believe there is something to be said for annealing

Certainly you would agree as it is fact that if you put two types of certain metals side by side, one will flow onto the other as you can see this macroscopically

I notice Frantz that you quote Carl Sagan (who BTW created my interest in the cosmos) in your Signature. You are looking at it from the macroscopic appearance. Now if we consider quantum mechanics I suggest you look at the universe now from the microcosm because it does exist.

This is just my $0.02 as like you Frantz I was a skeptic about cable burn in but I certainly don't want to give any impression that I know anything about quantum mechanics. Certainly however this could give explanation to your questions.

For my ears I have found the most audible changes to be with burn in for power cords.

Steve, good post. I think you are right on as these phenomenon need to be understood at the atomic and quantum level. For example UPOCC conductors have no grain boundaries, and the manufacture of such wire is far more difficult vs conventionally drawn wire. It's easy to scoff at this looking at it on the macro level, but when you consider the movement of electrons on the quantum level then the grain boundaries seem much more significant as they have a considerable effect on the electron's movement. Measurements show UPOCC copper wire is in fact more conductive than drawn copper wire in the range of 1-3% depending on the exact comparison, and this results in a wire that sounds very different from conventional wire.

Power cables are the strangest cables to me, they have the potential to make large differences but it is much harder to guess how they will perform vs ICs and SCs. Vibration control with AC power is absolutely critical to get good results, the Furutech GTX receptacles and FI-50 AC/IEC plugs address this with great success and are well worth it in a serious system imo.

Frantz, Because it is difficult to make one aspect of the system perfect does not mean there is no value in trying to make other aspects as perfect as possible, that's the whole point of High Fidelity Audio and one of the reasons I enjoy designing and building audio gear. The negative effect that moving cables has depends on how roughly it is handled, so packaging and shipping causes an obvious edge or harshness that dissipates over time. As far as not moving things I am a big proponent of vibration damping an audio system, the room being the most obvious but it applies to speakers, components and cables too. The cumulative effects of cables, power and damping can make or break the best system you can possibly out together, it is a system and every aspect is important.

I can say from being in the business of selling cables that the reports I hear back about how a cable sounds after shipping it to them vs after it settles is very consistent, so there is also an unexplained element of mass delusion that I have heard no explanation for... One of these days I will measure frequency response using my SL UPOCC copper litz wire speaker cables when new and as they break in, it's a very dramatic change... Now, I make sure I break-in cables before shipping but before I did the comments on this cable's break in were the same a bunch of times in a row, 100% consistency in the description of how the sound changed.

tomelex said:

Once I started a thread here on something like how do you know what you hear? Now, this is not about obvious things like recognizing a voice or a drum sound, but how do you really know that today, your system sounds better because you put in a new cable last week? If we have an open mind, then while we can talk about micro level changes in metal, how about changes in our hearing and physiological state from day to moment to hour to whatever.

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practice, practice, practice.

like any sense, hearing/listening can be fine tuned over time with repetitions to become reliable. it does require a consistent methodology and a large degree of interest and passion to do the work. being self aware of what mental approach one needs to form useful conclusions. how much time the process requires. have the type of environment that supports that activity.

it's not a casual thing. it's a serious thing, but satisfying too.

dedicated listening to music for 5+ hours a day for 20 years does sharpen listening skills.

One of these days I will measure frequency response using my SL UPOCC copper litz wire speaker cables when new and as they break in, it's a very dramatic change...

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Hello DaveC

Now that I would like to see. How are you measuring them??

Rob

tomelex said:

Once I started a thread here on something like how do you know what you hear? Now, this is not about obvious things like recognizing a voice or a drum sound, but how do you really know that today, your system sounds better because you put in a new cable last week? If we have an open mind, then while we can talk about micro level changes in metal, how about changes in our hearing and physiological state from day to moment to hour to whatever.

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They are not mutually exclusive.

The bottom line...if people can't hear differences between cables and don't believe a cable's sound character changes during break in and or settling, they need to have their hearing checked or need to get a more resolving system. This applies to power cables too. Flame on dis-believers.

Mike Lavigne said:

practice, practice, practice.

like any sense, hearing/listening can be fine tuned over time with repetitions to become reliable. it does require a consistent methodology and a large degree of interest and passion to do the work. being self aware of what mental approach one needs to form useful conclusions. how much time the process requires. have the type of environment that supports that activity.

it's not a casual thing. it's a serious thing, but satisfying too.

dedicated listening to music for 5+ hours a day for 20 years does sharpen listening skills.

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5 hrs per day for 20 years...woah! How many marriages during those two decades?

The bottom line...if people can't hear differences between cables and don't believe a cable's sound character changes during break in and or settling, they need to have their hearing checked or need to get a more resolving system. This applies to power cables too. Flame on dis-believers.

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Typical statement, you are nuts or your system isn't good enough. It just amazes me that the only people who fuss over this stuff is a small fraction of the audio industry. I guess they know something the entire military/space industrial complex doesn't.

Rob

es347 said:

5 hrs per day for 20 years...woah! How many marriages during those two decades?

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married for 41 years (to the same wonderful woman). 2 hours of my listening daily is before I go to work when she is asleep......or weekends 3 hours before she is awake. I likely average 6+ hours daily on weekends, and average 3-4 total listening weekdays. so a couple hours a day while I'm home and she is awake.....she loves her Fox news (and Rush), I love my music. I have all the conflict and reality at work I need and have to get away from it.....the news (and all the negativity) in my meditation and music.

it actually works well as she sleeps in and I don't....and she is a very light sleeper so I have to be away and quiet if I'm awake.

I started my serious listening after the kids were in college.

Robh3606 said:

I guess they know something the entire military/space industrial complex doesn't.

Rob

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'cept that if you look into designer bios you'll find quite a few that have come directly from that industry and many more indirectly.

One of my fave cables (no longer in production) were made from copper ribbon transformer windings from USN surplus.

Robh3606 said:

Typical statement, you are nuts or your system isn't good enough. It just amazes me that the only people who fuss over this stuff is a small fraction of the audio industry. I guess they know something the entire military/space industrial complex doesn't.

Rob

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So wait, you can't hear the diff ? I remember hearing cable differences back In the 1990's with my Levinson, Aerial Acoustics combo. I must be a rare bird indeed.

rockitman said:

So wait, you can't hear the diff ? I remember hearing cable differences back In the 1990's with my Levinson, Aerial Acoustics combo. I must be a rare bird indeed.

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Recently splurging $15K on magic grounding boxes and cables must make you an Endangered Species.

Steve Williams said:

So Frantz, here is my question to you.

If we start considering quantum physics and get down to the molecular level would you at least consider that due to whatever burn in process is done there could be changes at the molecular level such that there are pathways created within the cable that allows it to anneal at both ends and make for a better signal path. I believe there is something to be said for annealing

Certainly you would agree as it is fact that if you put two types of certain metals side by side, one will flow onto the other as you can see this macroscopically

I notice Frantz that you quote Carl Sagan (who BTW created my interest in the cosmos) in your Signature. You are looking at it from the macroscopic appearance. Now if we consider quantum mechanics I suggest you look at the universe now from the microcosm because it does exist.

This is just my $0.02 as like you Frantz I was a skeptic about cable burn in but I certainly don't want to give any impression that I know anything about quantum mechanics. Certainly however this could give explanation to your questions.

For my ears I have found the most audible changes to be with burn in for power cords.

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Steve

let's not go the Quantum level. I am lost there

What is that burn-in we are talking about? A change due to a signal flowing through a conductor? Does that signal change the wire to an extent that its electrical characteristics are measurably different? OTH you change when exposed to the cable (granting you for a few minutes that there are differences to be heard). You are fully aware of your having made that change and thus are prepared to hear the differences and your mid will find way to focus on those aspects you think beforehand must have changed. Your knowledge of the change made will make you pay attention to new area of "improvements"... Meanwhile the wire stays the same as before,,, it has not change not the least. "Annealing" is a particular process and it is absolutely not involved n the burning-in or cooking of a cable .. You heat the metal or glass and allow it to cool slowly .. The typical audiophile listening room cannot control the rate at which the "slowly" cooling occurs ... So what have changed? Not the cable.. You have gotten used to its sound, not saying this is a bad thing , assuming (for now) that the cables are vastly different you may never like it and that for various reasons ... But the cable itself will not change because of annealing or anything else the cable cooker do not, can not provoke that. Transducer are IMO a different thing. I remember a MG 3 I had which would flap with strong bass content... a big "TWACK" sound ... After a few hours of playing some pink and white noise on it .. Same system, same volume setting , same music .. Not a flap ..So I am convinced by that lone experience.. Recently hasd the same with an HE6 headphones ( One of the best headphones in the market, almost as good as my Stax in most respects )
This will never be settled TBH. No one has ever shown that a cable become physically different after the audiophile "cooking " process. We are thus left with accounts of removal of harshness and the likes, all those in full knowledge. If someone find their ware more enjoyable after thorough "cooking" by all means enjoy. Proving the physical changes that occurs in such cable is much more difficult, I am waiting for some proofs of that...
As for power cables ....

FrantzM said:

Steve

let's not go the Quantum level. I am lost there

What is that burn-in we are talking about? A change due to a signal flowing through a conductor? Does that signal change the wire to an extent that its electrical characteristics are measurably different? OTH you change when exposed to the cable (granting you for a few minutes that there are differences to be heard). You are fully aware of your having made that change and thus are prepared to hear the differences and your mid will find way to focus on those aspects you think beforehand must have changed. Your knowledge of the change made will make you pay attention to new area of "improvements"... Meanwhile the wire stays the same as before,,, it has not change not the least. "Annealing" is a particular process and it is absolutely not involved n the burning-in or cooking of a cable .. You heat the metal or glass and allow it to cool slowly .. The typical audiophile listening room cannot control the rate at which the "slowly" cooling occurs ... So what have changed? Not the cable.. You have gotten used to its sound, not saying this is a bad thing , assuming (for now) that the cables are vastly different you may never like it and that for various reasons ... But the cable itself will not change because of annealing or anything else the cable cooker do not, can not provoke that. Transducer are IMO a different thing. I remember a MG 3 I had which would flap with strong bass content... a big "TWACK" sound ... After a few hours of playing some pink and white noise on it .. Same system, same volume setting , same music .. Not a flap ..So I am convinced by that lone experience.. Recently hasd the same with an HE6 headphones ( One of the best headphones in the market, almost as good as my Stax in most respects )
This will never be settled TBH. No one has ever shown that a cable become physically different after the audiophile "cooking " process. We are thus left with accounts of removal of harshness and the likes, all those in full knowledge. If someone find their ware more enjoyable after thorough "cooking" by all means enjoy. Proving the physical changes that occurs in such cable is much more difficult, I am waiting for some proofs of that...
As for power cables ....

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Sure as for power cables.....I found the greatest improvement


Frantz, you seem so certain that none of this will ever be proved. Perhaps you are correct. I have no idea. Debates like this will go on forever but please tell me why you dismiss quantum mechanics as a possible explanation. Again, I have no idea but I am not going to be as dismissive as you and I would like to keep an open mind not withstanding the fact however that I have no idea of the answer

FWIW I do not use any special burn in apparatus such as a cable cooker. Speaking to some of the experts, the advice I got was that burn in of power cords is just as efficient if you plug them into a high current apparatus such as a simple fan and run it for a few days. I have no idea if it is any better as many times I will put the cable in my system and just run a signal through it or leave the device on for a few days

Frantz, I know nothing about quantum mechanics, probably less than you. But please tell me why in your expert opinion that we shouldn't go there as it appears you think it is nothing but gobbly gook. I really don't know. You nicely dodged the question as to why if certain metals are placed side by side, with time it is very easy to see with your eyes as to how one metal will migrate to the other. What's going on there Frantz that a similar postulate at the atomic level isn't also going on

You speak as if you know the answer Frantz. I certainly don't. Some cables I can hear better improvement than others and for my ears the power cords after burn in produced the most noticeable change