Jeff Fritz/State of the Uber High End

KeithR · Nov 4, 2014

Refreshing read in light of many debates on this forum focused on alleged high end value (although I'll disagree with him that 15k pair Class D is "good value"):

http://ultraaudio.com/index.php/fea.../527-the-luxury-high-end-conundrum-a-solution

"You know as well as I do that, at $250,000, the Helius can be considered only a high-end trophy for the ultrarich, whether or not it produces high-end sound. This is precisely the luxury market reader Craig speaks of.....Ultimately, the not-stupid-rich audiophile needs, once and for all, to leave behind the notion that the luxury marketplace has any bearing on the quality of sound he or she aspires to own."

Keith

Champ04 · Nov 5, 2014

D"Agostino makes the Helius as well.
The point with regards to the Momentum was that it went into thermal protection even before testing took place. A rather benign warm up cycle meant to prepare an amp for more consistent testing.

Agree with KeithR. That was an article that made me cheer. Of course, it doesn't bear much relevance around here.

Johnny Vinyl · Nov 5, 2014

Champ04 said:
D"Agostino makes the Helius as well.
The point with regards to the Momentum was that it went into thermal protection even before testing took place. A rather benign warm up cycle meant to prepare an amp for more consistent testing.

Agree with KeithR. That was an article that made me cheer. Of course, it doesn't bear much relevance around here.

It made me cheer as well.

FrantzM · Nov 5, 2014

KeithR said:
Refreshing read in light of many debates on this forum focused on alleged high end value (although I'll disagree with him that 15k pair Class D is "good value"):

http://ultraaudio.com/index.php/fea.../527-the-luxury-high-end-conundrum-a-solution

"You know as well as I do that, at $250,000, the Helius can be considered only a high-end trophy for the ultrarich, whether or not it produces high-end sound. This is precisely the luxury market reader Craig speaks of.....Ultimately, the not-stupid-rich audiophile needs, once and for all, to leave behind the notion that the luxury marketplace has any bearing on the quality of sound he or she aspires to own."

Keith

Thanks Jeff. May you be blessed to have taken such a courageous position when most of the reviewers will split all hair trying to justify those brutally priced items. Luxury Market is what our beloved hobby is (has devolved?) devolving into.
And what's wrong with Class D? Why can't it cost 15 K?

ack · Nov 5, 2014

I read Jeff's article last week and welcomed the perspective. But yes, I have not heard the Helius, and like Jeff, I can still render an opinion based on the Momentum's measurements; flame on...

astrotoy · Nov 5, 2014

If you pick up a copy of Robb's Report, the magazine for the uberrich and aspirants, you can see ads and sometimes articles about super high end audio and video. There are also features about super expensive wine, cars, yachts, watches, etc. Supposedly it was one of Michael Jackson's favorite reads.

Larry

rockitman · Nov 5, 2014

Blah, Blah, Blah. Perhaps he should write an article on the merits of Ferrari, Lambo and Porsche supercars and that the Prius measures better in terms of gas mileage and eco green factor. It's a free world. People make value decisions based on their financial means. Nothing new here.

Johnny Vinyl · Nov 5, 2014

rockitman said:
Blah, Blah, Blah. Perhaps he should write an article on the merits of Ferrari, Lambo and Porsche supercars and that the Prius measures better in terms of gas mileage and eco green factor. It's a free world. People make value decisions based on their financial means. Nothing new here.

Just don't assume that because they do that their choices are automatically superior. People with substantial financial means are much more prone to buy bling and status. Ever hear a $500,000 system that sounds like utter crap? I have.

Champ04 · Nov 5, 2014

rockitman said:
Blah, Blah, Blah. Perhaps he should write an article on the merits of Ferrari, Lambo and Porsche supercars and that the Prius measures better in terms of gas mileage and eco green factor. It's a free world. People make value decisions based on their financial means. Nothing new here.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Priceless reply.
Obfuscating the issue with straw man arguments. I've never once seen someone claim a Prius was a better car than a Ferrari because of gas mileage. Anyone who does that is missing the point of the Ferrari! Apple and Oranges! The difference in audio is the arrogant assumption by some to insist that the luxury market stereo goods are automatically superior. We're not comparing gas mileage and top speed performance here. We're (supposedly) all expecting the SAME standards here in audio, musical fidelity.

And yes, it's a free world. Buy whatever the hell you want and enjoy it all you want. But quit insisting that yours is inherently superior because it's prettier or more expensive. Because the proof does not bear that out. The degree to which confirmation bias exists in this industry is staggering.

You want to know why there is nothing new here? You want to know why this topic never goes away?
Because, unlike other luxury industries that began precisely AS luxury industries, audio has been hijacked by the luxury minded. What was once a PERFORMANCE based industry, regardless of price, is now an overwhelmingly luxury industry but with an obvious need by the luxury minded to justify their expenditures under the guise of performance. Blah Blah Blah. Nothing new here.

Orb · Nov 5, 2014

The risk though is that this kind of focus can drive one away from listening some great high end products; in my case I spent years not listening to Dartzeel due to some measurement anomalies, by chance I heard an ex-demo 8550 from one of the dealers I buy from and for me turned out to be the product I always wanted (and did buy and still own).
But yeah I get where Jeff is coming from.
Cheers
Orb

mauidan · Nov 5, 2014

"In the amplifier department, I’m thinking about the awesome products from Devialet. Consider that the Devialet 120 DAC-preamp-amp retails for $6495 -- not much more than the KSA-250 of almost 25 years ago -- and includes features that could only be dreamed of in 1991: wireless streaming, online customization, Ethernet connectivity, etc. And despite their reasonable prices, the sound quality of the Devialets currently constitutes the state of the art. But luxury buyers who just “know” that the six-figure amp must be better -- because they still believe that, to sound best, an amp must be heavier, bigger, occupy more boxes, and therefore cost a lot -- won’t even consider something like a Devialet. For you, Craig, and me: If you want to avoid the luxury/high-end conundrum, Devialet is a perfect starting and ending point."

Orb · Nov 5, 2014

Dan,
would be interesting to see how many on here have either owned or had the Devialet in their home out of curiosity/auditioning.
I think it would be quite a few (including myself).
Cheers
Orb

spiritofmusic · Nov 5, 2014

It seems like audio is condensing into 3 mkts. At the lower end e.g. the eminently affordable Naim MuSo which packs a lot in for it's v.reasonable £900, giving plenty of bang for your buck (pound). At the uber high end, take your pick from Magico Q7, Dartzeel monos, Techdas AF1 tt etc etc, which aim to be at the bleeding edge. Then there is the sector I'm most interested in, the squeezed middle, like my Zu Audio Definitions 4 spkrs ($12500), Devialet etc. In my opinion, and I am biased obv, it is this sector that I think is really the future of the high end audio - designers really packing in high performance, but aware of price considerations and what an aspiring consumer can really afford. I feel this an honest sector, and really do believe in this sector there is a careful balancing of attention to detail, the aspiration to and often realisation of beyond excellent SQ, excellent aesthetics, and a striving to provide true VFM and longevity of ownership.
It seems to me that going back to the 80s/90s when I first came into audio, the squeezed middle was not so squeezed but was pretty much the mainstream high end, with brands like Linn, Naim, Marantz, Macintosh etc etc representing the bulk of the audio landscape, and uber brands like Krell, Wilson few and far btwn as truly aspirational products, providing something different from the norm e.g. heroic build quality etc.
Now, every high end brand and his brother seem to be aspiring to produce an unreachable uber product. Just go around the shows and be accosted by literally dozens of products $30k+ to $500k
IMHO, it's not healthy for the future of hifi, esp since so many uber priced products don't even really appear to have ground breaking design to base the price on. And I fear for the squeezed middle, where profit margins are tight, the markets are precarious e.g. cost conscious US and Europe v uber affluent SE Asia, and the eventual outcome may be the market only bears the v.affordable and the quite frankly unaffordable, with the modestly aspirational squeezed middle squeezed out of existence.

FrantzM · Nov 5, 2014

rockitman said:
Blah, Blah, Blah. Perhaps he should write an article on the merits of Ferrari, Lambo and Porsche supercars and that the Prius measures better in terms of gas mileage and eco green factor. It's a free world. People make value decisions based on their financial means. Nothing new here.

Well a case can be made that those supercars do actually perform... When it comes to Audio , it's up in the air .. Preferences and all that ...

rockitman · Nov 5, 2014

FrantzM said:
Well a case can be made that those supercars do actually perform... When it comes to Audio , it's up in the air .. Preferences and all that ...

Yes they do and in general, statement products from top tier audio brands also perform over and above their lesser models. If you spend way too much on a brand's statement product and it doesn't deliver, you bought the wrong brand. Pretty simple. I do understand that people who own much more affordable equipment want validation that their systems sound close to the uber expensive systems. Wishful thinking for the most part. You do get what you pay for if you know what you are doing and know what to hear for.

microstrip · Nov 5, 2014

FrantzM said:
When it comes to (stereo - microstrip edit) Audio , it's up in the air .. Preferences and all that ...

A great scholar told us so. It is why we would like to have your (and others) detailed opinions on your preferences ...

spiritofmusic · Nov 5, 2014

Christian, no one is doubting a fair number of top brands have SOTA products at rel SOTA pricing. My contention is that so many top range products at exorbitant prices exist compared to say 20-30 yrs ago, when there was a more limited choice of the really expensive. I really do believe the emergence of the super rich in SE Asia, Russia, China, India, Brazil has propelled prices unreasonably high. When you hear stories like dealers in SE Asia saying that their richer customers won't buy a product at a certain high price, it gets relisted 25% pricier and hey presto, it sells.
When I was considering my first high end system in the mid 80s, I was looking at a Linn/Naim 6 pack mono block active setup at £25k/$35k, right at the edge of what was affordable, equating 3 decades later to £60k/$90k, which interestingly is what I've spent on my system of choice built up over nearly 20 yrs. There were uber priced products then that I would love to have owned like Krell, Wilson, Halcro, Rockport, Apogee etc, but the choice was limited and manageable, and as such was truly aspirational. Now EVERY high end brand produces stratospherically priced stuff that really is only directed at the uber rich (Kharma being a case in point, w/no UK or US dealer, just directed at Asia).
This is not a price flaming post, even if it looks like it, just a missive that the middle in the high end is squeezed more than back in a more rational time, when this sector dominated, in my opinion a much healthier scale of economics.

Johnny Vinyl · Nov 5, 2014

rockitman said:
Yes they do and in general, statement products from top tier audio brands also perform over and above their lesser models. If you spend way too much on a brand's statement product and it doesn't deliver, you bought the wrong brand. Pretty simple. I do understand that people who own much more affordable equipment want validation that their systems sound close to the uber expensive systems. Wishful thinking for the most part. You do get what you pay for if you know what you are doing and know what to hear for.

You really, really are making some very broad assumptions here Christian. Speaking for myself only, I have never looked for that type of validation. In fact, I have not looked for validation at all from any angle or viewpoint. I think if someone were to look for the type of validation you brought up, they should get out of the audio buying game, because it's a losing proposition. Worse still is the dissatisfaction one must feel every time they turn on their rig, because they know or think it could be better.

rockitman · Nov 5, 2014

Johnny Vinyl said:
You really, really are making some very broad assumptions here Christian. Speaking for myself only, I have never looked for that type of validation. In fact, I have not looked for validation at all from any angle or viewpoint. I think if someone were to look for the type of validation you brought up, they should get out of the audio buying game, because it's a losing proposition. Worse still is the dissatisfaction one must feel every time they turn on their rig, because they know or think it could be better.

I commend you. There are many on this site who whine about equipment prices and fit my supposition...ie: I can spend $5k on my source playback and be close to the sound of a $50K+ source playback. I won't name names, but they always rear their heads in statement equipment/cable threads. Hi-end audio is not communism....there is no one size that fits all. There are many choices for many diffferent price points. A man or rarely a women in hi-fi needs to know their limitations...not to quote Dirty Harry...lol

Johnny Vinyl · Nov 5, 2014

rockitman said:
I commend you. There are many on this site who whine about equipment prices and fit my supposition...ie: I can spend $5k on my source playback and be close to the sound of a $50K+ source playback. I won't name names, but they always rear their heads in statement equipment/cable threads. Hi-end audio is not communism....there is no one size that fits all. There are many choices for many diffferent price points. A man or rarely a women in hi-fi needs to know their limitations...not to quote Dirty Harry...lol

I don't think I'm completely off the hook here as I've also been guilty of saying that Brand X is equal to Brand Y costing twice the price. I think when Ive said that it wasn't so much a statement on component quality, but rather on one of musical enjoyment and taste.

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