Topflight DAC from the past VS today's DAC on redbook?

Interesting thread. Here is what i auditioned before as part of assessing my Zanden digital (which i believe has not been updated for at least 3-4 years)

- Unico
- Krell KPS25
- Wadia 27i
- Wadia s7i
- Audio Research CD3, 5, 7, 8
- Metronome Kalista Ref/C2A
- Krell 505
- Meridian 808.i.2
- Weiss Medea
- Emm CDSA
- DCS Elgar Plus
- Esoteric X-01SE
- Audio Aero La Source
- DCS Scarlatti
- Stahl-Tek Vekian

I have also heard the DCS Vivaldi but in a different system, so have only an 'idea', but certainly have spoken at length with friend who took the stack home to shoot out with his Scarlatti. Do I think the Vivaldi sets a new benchmark? Possibly though my friend who owns Scarlatti (more importantly) did NOT find it substantially better than his Scarlatti when the Scarlatti was properly isolated and grounded.

Consistently, for me, some of the older SOTA DACs remain truly great (Zanden, Metronome Kalista Ref/C2A, older Stahl-Tek). They may no longer be the last word in definition...but more broadly they can easily compete (for me) when it comes to overall presentation: extremely good detail/decay, nuance, bass power, 'flow' (ie, not sounding like a typewriter of notes), extension, ease of separation, spatial cues, etc.

Having learned all the ways to drive the Zanden's performance well beyond where it started out for me years ago, i still have not found a redbook player i would choose over it definitively...and of those which i would consider seriously, neither is current-production (Metronome Kalista Ref/C2A and Stahl-Tek...have not heard Opus Prime).

I emphasize this last point, by the way...despite 0's and 1's being 0's and 1's, there is still a lot of analog going on in digital...and this is where proper isolation, grounding, emi/rfi shielding has a huge POSITIVE impact on the quality of digital in my own experience.

IME older DACs do not age gracefully. The discrete output stage may be an advantage in some cases, but the digital parts are seriously lacking now. Especially the jitter figures in the older DACs vs the current models are sky high, which leads to that fatiguing and grainy sound we all know too well.

In another thread someone mentioned that adding the Berkeley Audio Alpha 2 DAC (~3k used) to his system with Spectral SDR-4000 CDP brought a substantial improvement - and I believe the Spectral SDR-4000 is regarded as a step up from the Spectral SDR-2000.

BTW, since you mentioned the Krell KPS20i - one thing to keep in mind while shopping for an used CDP, is the drive mechanism availability. The Krell KPS20i uses the long discontinued CDM-9Pro drive, which is almost impossible to obtain nowadays.

Purite Audio said:

Try and compare everything within your own home ,be aware that output voltages may be different so you may need to level match, and obviously NOS and valve output designs will sound different, to contemporary oversampling designs .
The NOS Zandens measurements ( Stereophile) make interesting reading.
Keith

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Thanks, keith...yes, I have tried to ensure careful matching but I admit I have not done super-scientific studies here. This is just a hobby, and I am having fun. As for the Zanden measurements, I have read and filed away every review in print for every piece of equipment I own. That includes the infamous Zanden measurements. All I can say is that I have yet to find something I like better, and there are so many things we don't measure or aren't measuring (plus the first Zanden unit was broken that they measured and the next unit they measured was much better)...I have stopped paying attention to only the stats.

From what I remember, I still wish I had my Wadia 27ix

Should have never sold it 12/14yr. ago.

IMHO is this hobby you do not have absolute values - we choose a DAC for our system. Some older DACs sound grainy or fatiguing, but IMHO they are now exceptions. The real problem is finding a DAC that matches our system and preferences. In general, I feel modern DACs have more resolution than older designs.

BTW, are using a matching CD transport or a PC server?

Lloyd, would you consider comparing a Lampi B7, since it is a NOS dac that can roll 45s, VT52s, etc? I would like to know your feedback on that vs Zanden

I have both old and new DACs. The old is discrete IIRC and I believe has really excellent sound for 44/16. It is actually an ADAC. Pacific Microsonics Model Two. Mine is a rather late build, I would guess from the early 2000's. However, for 44/16, their Model One works fine. When I was listening to Alon Wolf's system before Magico moved down to Hayward, I think all of his sources were 44/16, played through a Model One. My consultant has both a Model Two and the new BADA RS and the Model Two holds up very well in the comparison. My new DAC is an Exasound E28, but I don't use it for 44/16, only for multichannel files.

Larry

bonzo75 said:

Lloyd, would you consider comparing a Lampi B7, since it is a NOS dac that can roll 45s, VT52s, etc? I would like to know your feedback on that vs Zanden

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Hi...thanks for the offer. On the one hand, I have heard great things about iLampizator..on the other hand, with a focus on current changes in the system...and little enough time to focus on those, I hesitate just now to commit to listening to more digital at the moment. Are u using Lampizator?

Purite Audio said:

Ultimately one must make ones own choice, but I do believe it important that one realises why ,for example A NOS design
dac sounds different.
Keith.

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I am no techie and defer to those who are. In my far more limited 'knowledge' which is based only on listening, one thing that I found interesting in all the various auditions is that, every once in a while, I came across 2 digital sources from supposedly completely different design approaches that sounded virtually indistinguishable from each other.

Yes, exceedingly rare, but sometimes to me it has happened. One example is the Audio Aero La Source and the Zanden (but both using the Audio Aero La Source Transport)...I much preferred the Zanden when hooked back up to its own Zanden transport, but the fact that a NOS Tube DAC and AA's 32-bit/384kHz DSP (S.T.A.R.S. Evolution)/2 Burr-Brown 1792 DACs sounded so close was quite a surprise to me.

LL21 said:

Hi...thanks for the offer. On the one hand, I have heard great things about iLampizator..on the other hand, with a focus on current changes in the system...and little enough time to focus on those, I hesitate just now to commit to listening to more digital at the moment. Are u using Lampizator?

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Yes. So does your Sablon manufacturer, and the distributor of Lampi is also around London. I have mine with VT52 and 6A3 valves, some use the EML 45s, you can also add in Western Electrics including their 101Ds, or 300Bs. That's why a comparison with Zanden will be interesting.

bonzo75 said:

Yes. So does your Sablon manufacturer, and the distributor of Lampi is also around London. I have mine with VT52 and 6A3 valves, some use the EML 45s, you can also add in Western Electrics including their 101Ds, or 300Bs. That's why a comparison with Zanden will be interesting.

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Yes, I think Mark Coles (Sablon Audio) loves his...have not spoken with him in a while. Which tubes are you using with yours? Are you using the L7 or L6? I have read the 7 is the flagship, but for some reason people recommend L6 for people looking for optimal redbook? Is that simply because L6 does only redbook, or because (like Zanden) the higher res version is more versatile but for pure redbook, the lower res version is preferred? (Zanden 5000S is their signature but for a couple of years the Zanden 5100 DAC came out which did up to 24/96 or something, but Yamada San was very clear for 16/44, the 5000S was def superior.)

I have the 5 at home now, and the B7 which I ordered is with the distributor, still to reach me. The valves I have are Hytron for VT52s. Sylvania or Hytron are the preferred choice for 52s. EML 45s for the 45s. For 6A3, i couldn't get a matched pair but a tube dealer said he had a Lafayette and a Tung sol that looked the same construction, so I bought it.

I never heard the 6, but the 7 is supposed to be in another league. It uses DHT (direct heated triode) tech, which is different from previous levels, the DSD is supposed to be the best from reviews, and the PCM was outstanding. I am using a lot of classical and opera to audition, and when I put on Mussorgsky's Pictures, the speed, dynamics, separation, were incredible. Or the way the tuba builds up and decays in the Bydlo track of that CD. Extremely open too. The Big 6 uses the 2A3s, which are more bassy than 45s, but in the B7 you can have them as well as a choice of other valves, so you can play around with the sound for different genre of music.

bonzo75 said:

I have the 5 at home now, and the B7 which I ordered is with the distributor, still to reach me. The valves I have are Hytron for VT52s. Sylvania or Hytron are the preferred choice for 52s. EML 45s for the 45s. For 6A3, i couldn't get a matched pair but a tube dealer said he had a Lafayette and a Tung sol that looked the same construction, so I bought it.

I never heard the 6, but the 7 is supposed to be in another league. It uses DHT (direct heated triode) tech, which is different from previous levels, the DSD is supposed to be the best from reviews, and the PCM was outstanding. I am using a lot of classical and opera to audition, and when I put on Mussorgsky's Pictures, the speed, dynamics, separation, were incredible. Or the way the tuba builds up and decays in the Bydlo track of that CD. Extremely open too. The Big 6 uses the 2A3s, which are more bassy than 45s, but in the B7 you can have them as well as a choice of other valves, so you can play around with the sound for different genre of music.

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Very interesting...I have read great things about Lampi, and particularly their latest generation of digital. Regarding tubes, I still use Amperex 7308 with my Zanden along with all Mullards in the PSU. In the CJ, I just changed from an Amperex 6922 which was getting a slight bit noisy to the quietest set of Mullards ever, and with EAT tube dampers, it has a different sound from the Amperex which is more nuanced, delicate and open thru the upper mids and perhaps even in the upper to mid bass. But the Mullards are SO quiet that even with 95db of gain in a system where the electronics also have high gain, I cannot hear any tube hiss unless I stand next to the speakers with my ear turned to them...and THAT makes a nice improvement. And my CJ is not as sensitive to tube rolling as other equipment I have owned in the past.

With your Lampi, I can only imagine the possibilities when rolling tubes...

bonzo75 said:

...I am using a lot of classical and opera to audition, and when I put on Mussorgsky's Pictures, the speed, dynamics, separation, were incredible. Or the way the tuba builds up and decays in the Bydlo track of that CD...

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which Mussorgsky Pictures do you listen to? One of my favourite classical pieces of all time. I like Tugan Soghiev the best...also like the piano version by Mikhail Pletnev.

Oh great, I will get them. I have the fritz Reiner one from Living Stereo, Hybrid disc. For Piano, I have the Bryan Janis one (beautiful beautiful). By far the best piano I heard was this on Analysis Audio speakers. From the Orchestra, I love the Gnomus to check separation, dynamics, impact, and how the gaps and silence sounds. I use Old Castle to see how it draws me into the music. And then Bydlo, of course. I know you love the Stillpoints, but put 3 Shun Mook resonators under your dac and/or pre and see what happens the tuba in Bydlo, or to the various instruments in Gnomus. I also have the Solti

Sometimes for fun I listen to Tomita's Pictures and the heavy metal version from Mekong Delta.

Also book tickets to the Pictures at the Barbican in May. I booked already, won't miss it for anything.

If you have time, please do go down to Brighton to listen to a Datasat Dirac 13.4 system, with Auro 3d, which is the best reproduction I have heard of orchestra. It throws all 2-ch philosophies out of the window. Lots of concert hall ambience and 3d imaging - the brass section and the 3d can't be reproduced in 2-ch like it can in this system. And the room is a crap 7m * 3m, still...

bonzo75 said:

Oh great, I will get them. I have the fritz Reiner one from Living Stereo, Hybrid disc. For Piano, I have the Bryan Janis one (beautiful beautiful). By far the best piano I heard was this on Analysis Audio speakers. From the Orchestra, I love the Gnomus to check separation, dynamics, impact, and how the gaps and silence sounds. I use Old Castle to see how it draws me into the music. And then Bydlo, of course. I know you love the Stillpoints, but put 3 Shun Mook resonators under your dac and/or pre and see what happens the tuba in Bydlo, or to the various instruments in Gnomus. I also have the Solti

Sometimes for fun I listen to Tomita's Pictures and the heavy metal version from Mekong Delta.

Also book tickets to the Pictures at the Barbican in May. I booked already, won't miss it for anything.

If you have time, please do go down to Brighton to listen to a Datasat Dirac 13.4 system, with Auro 3d, which is the best reproduction I have heard of orchestra. It throws all 2-ch philosophies out of the window. Lots of concert hall ambience and 3d imaging - the brass section and the 3d can't be reproduced in 2-ch like it can in this system. And the room is a crap 7m * 3m, still...

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Great stuff! I also have the Reiner...nice one, but would appreciate your thoughts on Sokhiev. I will look up the Janis one...sounds interesting.

Funny you should mention Analysis Audio...I am MOST intrigued by those having always loved Apogees. They are being custom-redone by TRL...but that is one-off custom rebuilding. I am most intrigued by the current production Analysis Audio, having spoken with a few people whose ears I trust...and specifically said Analysis Audio is in the rarified space when it comes to music making.

Where did you hear them? Which ones?

Hi Lloyd, The UK distributor is in Taunton, Somerset. Apart from Analysis he does NAT audio (best amps I have heard, it precisely on such complex symphonies you can see how the pre s much superior to Audio Research types at a lower cost). The power amps are SET monos of 60 and 120w each. Lovely looking hot beasts. He also did Vandersteens, and does Brinkmann. His LoIT CD player is supposed to be superb, at around 20k. Though I am not interested in all that, it is his Analysis and NAT I like. Pasting below a previous post of mine on Analysis:

The Analysis were inspired by Apogees, and look similar but sound different. Those who like them think they are much better. That is my opinion as well as what research on audioasylum tells me, even the Apogee forum has some Analysis fans. I find the Apogees lack the midrange magic of the Logans, while Analysis do it as well. Difference between Stats and Ribbon/magnets is that vocals on Stats are more thin and transparent, while Analysis do more full bodied. On female vocals both are equal, while male vocals Analysis are better than Logans IMO.

Analysis go down as deep as Apogees, but slight difference. Apogees are dynamic for rock - Analysis are better suited for classical. They play classical with zero compression. And the Piano on an Analysis is the best I have heard, nothing comes close. Boxes sound constipated, Logans can't handle it, Estelons play the piano like extreme digital. Also, the soundstage in the Analysis is the largest I have heard, much more than Logans or Apogees.

I haven't bought them but have been auditioning the Analysis Audio Omegas which are currently my dream speakers. The Amphitryons (one up from Omegas) are indeed the final speakers for those who like them, but for my flat the Omegas are fine. You need to mod the crossovers - both the US and the UK distributor do that - the US distributor has duelund Caps crossovers with JPS labs wiring in the Analysis, the UK distributor (whose ears are the best I have heard among dealers in the UK for sound and classical) also mods the crossovers and uses LFD audio wiring. His LFD audio power cable also outperforms the Valhalla at a much cheaper rate.

I haven't heard a properly set up new Soundlabs, as the closest is in Paris. Will do so sometime soon. They won't fit my current flat, so the AA should be the final. Those who have heard both say both are equally good with different characteristics.

The UK distributor uses NAT audio amping, still the best I have heard, but the NATs run too hot - SET monos at 120w each. Not practical. The US distributor makes his own hybrid class D amps called Arion, monos of 500w * 8 and 1000w * 4 ohms. They use tubed input, duelund caps, and do not use the standard switching class D supply. At $6k, I know of two people who seem to prefer them as much as their LAMM reference while running the Analysis.

The Analysis like power but straight 8 ohm impedance unlike Apogees which need 1ohm impedance control