Great Stuff!!! I will have to check them out...the one thing I would appreciate your advice on: the propulsive bass thing. Based on your comments, I listen to equal parts classical, jazz and blues ensembles as I do Hans Zimmer soundtracks and deep house/hip hop/deep electronic...propulsive controlled air-moving bass is kind of a must. the 2nd set of panels (4-panel Orions?) might do it, but they are HUGE...any thoughts on this? Thanks!! Very exciting...
Topflight DAC from the past VS today's DAC on redbook?
- Thread starter leyenda
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I think Orions might be an overkill, though I have never heard them. You will have to travel to the US to listen to them. The Omegas are definitely not the best for rock. For classical, piano, opera, Jazz, they are (to me). I have decided not to have an audiophile system for rock, didn't see much point, given the quality of masterings and that the best rock is usually on bootlegs, not on audiophile grade vinyls or CDs. So I get my rock kicks out of earphones and soundbars.
The only system I know that can do both is that Datasat Dirac Mch 13.4 system with auro 3d. However, you will have to suspend all your learning, experience and perceptions of hifi to audition this. Why?
1. The Datasat dac is poor. Yet it doesn't make much of a difference here, though of course you can improve SQ by putting your dac after the Datasat
2. There is upmixing of 2-channel to the Auro 3d. Upmixing *audiophile shudder*
3. The soundstage is not the style of panels or horns, where you get a soundstage by projecting in front of the speakers for nearfield type listening. You get the soundstage like you get in a concert hall - you experience the distance from the stage yet it is immersive.
4. Separation doesn't come from a preamp being better, it comes from room correction and processing that really shows vocals and instruments differently
5. The front two speakers used were B&W 802D, which I don't like in 2-ch for various reasons, but here they sounded sublime.
6. Best 3d and slam for orchestra I have heard. Want rock? Just switch over to 2-channel and let the propulsive bass rip.
Since you already have box speakers and 2 subs, you might want to look at this. Extension will be fairly cheap for you for ambient speakers, the only cost will be that of a Datasat RS20i (20k), or a Trinnov Altitude, which is much more expensive. You will need to add Mch amps for the surrounds.
Anyway, you don't need to decide. Just do a trip to Brighton. I want some feedback as well, on how this system might sound over the long term. While it did all of the above, it did make the bloom and timbre of some instruments sound different, but I still thought was overall better.
The only system I know that can do both is that Datasat Dirac Mch 13.4 system with auro 3d. However, you will have to suspend all your learning, experience and perceptions of hifi to audition this. Why?
1. The Datasat dac is poor. Yet it doesn't make much of a difference here, though of course you can improve SQ by putting your dac after the Datasat
2. There is upmixing of 2-channel to the Auro 3d. Upmixing *audiophile shudder*
3. The soundstage is not the style of panels or horns, where you get a soundstage by projecting in front of the speakers for nearfield type listening. You get the soundstage like you get in a concert hall - you experience the distance from the stage yet it is immersive.
4. Separation doesn't come from a preamp being better, it comes from room correction and processing that really shows vocals and instruments differently
5. The front two speakers used were B&W 802D, which I don't like in 2-ch for various reasons, but here they sounded sublime.
6. Best 3d and slam for orchestra I have heard. Want rock? Just switch over to 2-channel and let the propulsive bass rip.
Since you already have box speakers and 2 subs, you might want to look at this. Extension will be fairly cheap for you for ambient speakers, the only cost will be that of a Datasat RS20i (20k), or a Trinnov Altitude, which is much more expensive. You will need to add Mch amps for the surrounds.
Anyway, you don't need to decide. Just do a trip to Brighton. I want some feedback as well, on how this system might sound over the long term. While it did all of the above, it did make the bloom and timbre of some instruments sound different, but I still thought was overall better.
~thanks...I will look into that! As for long term listening to panoramic full-range, full-on sound, I think it CAN be fantastic and immersive...the question as you rightfully ask is whether long term, purity of tone, nuance of notes will win out in terms of long-term satisfaction. The increased complexity (and size and cost requirements) of more and more speakers is something where I fear given limited, budget, space and time...I might well find immersive sound...but will it be as pure, nuanced, etc? Will I care at that point? maybe/maybe note.
What I CAN say is that after spending a year thinking long and hard about 'ultimate scale' (Arrakis, Genesis)...I have meanwhile been going all out with my existing speakers on reducing mechanical vibration, emi/rfi and grounding distortion...and have discovered such a purity of tone, a level of articulation, nuance and detail that it really makes me hanker a LOT less for ultimate scale...particularly when it also requires more amps, more cables (more space and more investment)...
...in fact it is to SUCH a point of satisfaction, I have stopped focusing on 'ultimate scale' other than in the context of discussions such as these...
It actually does better in limited space, due to the correction. As for budget, if you like it, channeling your budget from selling off your cables, isolation and preamp will give you much more difference. There is no doubt that magnitude of difference with the Datasat will be higher, much higher, thing is if you like it. Like I said, it means you have to get out of your 2-ch comfort zone. And therein lies the challenge. Of course, you have to like it first. I would also suggest that you don't compare this with other Mch systems, because I had heard this system in Mch mode before, and while it was good, it was nothing like what it was with Auro 3d added. That said, after that I heard two more Auro 3d Mch systems which weren't as good, but still did orchestra better. In fact for you the decision will be easier, with boxes and subs already present. For me, a panel might not suit this set up well. I will go to ISE in Amsterdam in Feb though, it is a Mch show. Anyway, for me now audiophilia is auditioning, for music I go to Barbican and other halls. I will delay my purchase decisions till I am doubly sure
I don't play an instrument (played some Indian stuff (harmonium) as a kid). It is exactly on purity of signal that I have the question, but as I said, the overall effect seems better. Also, the dac quality is poor, so putting a good dac in the chain can improve it. All the benefits of isolation, cables, etc (which include soundstaging, better bass and midrange, you achieve here through the correction). There is more decay and things like Old Castle from Pictures sound better because the sax and the other woodwinds are more clear and separated.
That aside, for 2-channel, try the NAT preamp from the same Taunton dealer - Alternative Audio. You can also trust his ear a lot on classical and purity of signal. I think it will beat you CJ Gat (no offence) on sounding real as well as on separating complex music. I know one guy who found it better than his CAT JL1, and also had compared it to many others like VTLs, and Einstein.
Attached are some rankings of the NAT, and it is relatively inexpensive.
As you see the pre at 7k is rated 2 behind the 23k Ypsilon and ahead of 30k Dan Agostino. The Power amp is rated 1
That aside, for 2-channel, try the NAT preamp from the same Taunton dealer - Alternative Audio. You can also trust his ear a lot on classical and purity of signal. I think it will beat you CJ Gat (no offence) on sounding real as well as on separating complex music. I know one guy who found it better than his CAT JL1, and also had compared it to many others like VTLs, and Einstein.
Attached are some rankings of the NAT, and it is relatively inexpensive.
As you see the pre at 7k is rated 2 behind the 23k Ypsilon and ahead of 30k Dan Agostino. The Power amp is rated 1
Attachments
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foto 1.jpg -
foto 2.JPG
Larry,
IIRC, the PM II was/is well-regarded for its AD converter. Have you listened to or heard anything about the Mytek Manhattan?
I liked what I heard via headset at THE Show/Newport, recently. My understanding is the Manhattan will offer DSD256 digital audio input via SDIF.
Enjoyed Bricasti gear at the same Newport venue...uncertain of their DSD support.
IIRC, the PM II was/is well-regarded for its AD converter. Have you listened to or heard anything about the Mytek Manhattan?
I liked what I heard via headset at THE Show/Newport, recently. My understanding is the Manhattan will offer DSD256 digital audio input via SDIF.
Enjoyed Bricasti gear at the same Newport venue...uncertain of their DSD support.
My absolute favorite Pictures is the piano version played by Sviatoslav Richter, in a mono broadcast of a live concert in 1958 in Bulgaria. It was first issued in the US by Columbia ML5600 IIRC, and has live concert coughing and not great sonics. But for a performance of a lifetime, it cannot be matched. The Soviet authorities kept Richter from touring the West for many years. In the early '60's when the great Russian pianist Emil Gilels caused a sensation in the West with his first tour, he said, "Wait until you hear Richter."
The Janis is great also. I heard him play Pictures in Chicago in the '60's. The Mercury recording was never released for some reason and only came out when the Mercury CD's and SACD's were issued. There is a very fine Speaker's Corner vinyl edition.
The Reiner Pictures on RCA is also a classic. It was one of the Absolute Sound Super Discs, and the RCA SACD in 3 channel has super sonics.
Larry
You may know that (along with many of Mussorgsky's compositions) that he did not orchestrate it. It was a piano piece that wasn't even published until after Mussorgsky's tragic early death (at ago 39 from alcoholism). More than 40 years later, Koussevitsky commissioned Maurice Ravel to orchestrate it and that is the version that we most commonly hear.
Thanks! Yes, I was somewhat aware of the history, but thanks for clarifying. I will definitely look up the Richter...I have his hard-to-find Beethoven from Praga Recordings, the best remasterings I could find.
Larry is not going to give up the PM2. It holds too much cache' for him. I wouldn't give him $20 for it. The Manhattan that I had in my room at RMAF wasn't ready for prime time. Chebon worked on for for a couple of hours and couldn't get the unit playing DSD. It would only go as high as 88.2 For $5k, I'd seriously try to stretch the budget a bit and get the Merging HAPI. The HAPI is working NOW and is 8 in/out at PCM up to 384kHz and DSD256fs.
This has happened several times to me - some CD transports have a dominant character. My experiences were mostly carried with the air bearing Forsell CD transport, and a few times with the original Mark Levinson ML30.
Some people will tell you that it is due to the specific jitter pattern added by the transport
. Perhaps, but is does not change the fact that it sounded much better than most of the competition.Thanks will check out Richter. Yes I know about the Ravel one. I have also heard another orchestration. There is also a BIS CD which is all Mussorgsky, in which his Song and Dances of Death is pretty good, liked the vocals on it. Martti Talvela with the Finnish Symphony Orchestra.
Sam - The Bricast M1 DAC currently supports single and double DSD playback (DSD64 & DSD128) with their latest hardware and firmware versions. Older models can be upgraded at the factory.
Hi Bruce,
The PM2 certainly has cachet :b
Major bummer regarding The Manhattan
I only heard it through phones.Agreed. The Merging HAPI is what's happening! At one point, a friend and I were contemplating
purchasing some digital gear together, but it was expensive. The HAPI is a great solution from what I gather.
Do/did you have a Tascam DA-3000? If so, how do you like its analog output stage? If Tascam makes a quad DSD
recorder available, I will seriously consider it.
Hi audio.bill,
Bricasti appears to be a company that markets and produces top-flight gear. I went to the Newport Bricasti room to listen to their digital converter -- what I wasn't expecting were those impressive monoblock amps.
They are good?
Hi audio.bill,
Bricasti appears to be a company that markets and produces top-flight gear. I went to the Newport Bricasti room to listen to their digital converter -- what I wasn't expecting were those impressive monoblock amps.
Well, Worldcat -- I would happily describe myself as an analog, valve, audio enthusiast
However, I have been extremely impressed with the 'analog' sensibility of DSD digital and the Bricasti converter and amps.
In other words, the fleeting time spent with Bricasti -- albeit, in show conditions with an unknown loudspeaker -- has me
believing they are a contender in the...sounds like analog...doesn't sound like solid state...categories
Well, Worldcat -- I would happily describe myself as an analog, valve, audio enthusiast
However, I have been extremely impressed with the 'analog' sensibility of DSD digital and the Bricasti converter and amps.
In other words, the fleeting time spent with Bricasti -- albeit, in show conditions with an unknown loudspeaker -- has me
believing they are a contender in the...sounds like analog...doesn't sound like solid state...categories
Bricasti received a lot of kudos at the recent RMAF show in Denver for their DSD DAC playing DSD music from Native DSD.
I'm surprised how many of the other DAC makers at the show were demoing DSD features without DSD music files! Wow....
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