Tube Friendly "Big" high end speakers

bgupton

New Member
Sep 23, 2014
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San Francisco, CA
I've been upgrading my system from good to great. I addressed the analog front end first and now have something respectable (Brinkmann Oasis w/ Graham Phantom II Supreme, Lyra Delos, SimAudio Moon 310LP, and Acrolink 8N Reference Phono Cable.

The system is being driven by a PrimaLuna Premium Dialogue Integrated and the speakers are Opera Seconda's in a smallish dedicated listening room. I'm moving into a much larger house, but will no longer have a dedicated listening room.

The new room is 21.5' x 14.5' with lots of big windows and a high v-shaped vaulted ceiling which I'll treat with GIK acoustic panels. Not looking on advice on the room. It is what it is. Just giving a bit of info since I suspect it will be on the lively side. Here's a video. The room starts around the 2:10 mark: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrDpTsBDD_M

I'm looking to upgrade the Opera's. I really want a "big" speaker, something that will move some air and pressurize a room like this. My preference is for something tube friendly and I'll likely need to use my PrimaLuna for at least a few months. Not really interested in horns though.

I'm looking for a very 3D soundstage that's velvety smooth. Detail is great, but definitely nothing fatiguing as I tend to listen at higher volumes for extended periods. While I do listen to a lot of Classic Rock and Jazz, I also listen to a lot of more modern music. I want something that isn't going to make this stuff sound terrible.

I'm planning to buy used, so anything that retails up to $40-50K might be doable. TAD and Focal are on my radar right now, but it's difficult to read between the lines from reviewers to understand what will work. I'm assuming whatever I get will require matching amplification, so I want to get the speaker in place and then audition some amps.

Which speakers should I be considering?
 

bgupton

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Sep 23, 2014
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San Francisco, CA
I'm not really interested in horns. I just don't like the looks of them. I like a beefy looking speaker like the TAD R-1 (which is out of my price range) or the Focal Maestro's (which isn't). Both of these (I've read here) are efficient enough to work with the right tube amps. So I'm looking for efficient "big" speakers, but not necessarily the MOST efficient speakers.

The other really efficient speaker I've already auditioned was the DeVore 0/96's. I liked the sound on it a lot on certain material. It sounded fantastic on jazz and even some rock (Jimi Hendrix was amazing). But the sound kinda fell apart when I put on more "complex" music. When I say complex, I guess I mean music with a lot going on. My go to test track for this is the opening track of The Cure's "Disintegration".

I've found that a lot of high end speakers are voiced to handle less "complex" music like Jazz or a vocalist REALLY well, but can't really handle an explosion of sound like this Cure track. I listen to a lot of shoegazey stuff that has a thick sound with a lot going on. I want a speaker that doesn't turn it to mud. I found that the 0/96's (at least with the amplification I've heard it with) wasn't able to handle "thick" sounds as well as my Operas. I'm hoping to identify some big speakers that can, but really like how tube amplification can take the bite off of some of the more modern recordings I spend a lot of time with.

Does all of that make sense?

p.s. Try not to get caught up in the "complex" description. It's sometimes hard to describe sound as I'm sure most here know. :)
 

bgupton

New Member
Sep 23, 2014
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San Francisco, CA
Yeah. I'm planning to put GIK panels on the ceiling for sure. I have 8 of their panels now that I can use there. I also have their big bass trap which I'll put behind my listening position and figure out a way to cover it so it looks nice.

I'm also planning to have some wooden diffusers made that will look more like art to put above the fireplace. I'll also probably fill the fireplace with wood (there's an outdoor fireplace, so I'm sure I will never want to use the indoor fireplace). I'm also going to throw a nice thick rug on the floor and get fabric blinds made. Maybe get some other panels on stands that I can pull out for listening sessions.

I'd also like to get an acoustical engineer out to evaluate, so let me know if you know anyone in the San Francisco Bay area. :)

Any other ideas?
 

bgupton

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Sep 23, 2014
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San Francisco, CA
I guess I should add that I'm not absolutely married to tube amps. I'll likely replace my phono stage soon and will almost definitely get a tube phono. And I could still run a tube pre-amp. I guess I just like the look of tube amps as much as the sound. :)
 

CGabriel

Industry Expert
Oct 31, 2013
618
92
265
WA, USA
www.shunyata.com
I guess I should add that I'm not absolutely married to tube amps. I'll likely replace my phono stage soon and will almost definitely get a tube phono. And I could still run a tube pre-amp. I guess I just like the look of tube amps as much as the sound. :)

From what you have said about your preferences I believe you should give the KEF BLADES a trial. We have used them with Audio Research tube amps, Berning amp and Constellation solid state amps.
 

bgupton

New Member
Sep 23, 2014
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San Francisco, CA
I've heard the Blades quite a bit, but just haven't been enthralled by them. In fairness, I was never in the market for that speaker when I was listening to them so I haven't done a real evaluation. I'm also not sure about the aesthetics. They are a bit sleek and maybe a bit too modern looking. I'll give them another listen though. Thanks!
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
3,820
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1,000
Reno, NV
The Blades aren't perfect by any means, but I have heard them sound really good at shows, which says something right there. Vandersteen 5A's are worth a listen too (they have their own bass amps, and are often demo'ed with tube amps). And NOLA Baby Grands should be considered if you can find some in your price range (they are always demo'ed with ARC Ref75's).

GIK picture panels with scatter plates might meet your diffusor with artwork requirement. I have one, it's beautiful, and constructed to a much higher quality standard than the usual GIK panels (costs more too, of course).
 

CGabriel

Industry Expert
Oct 31, 2013
618
92
265
WA, USA
www.shunyata.com
I've heard the Blades quite a bit, but just haven't been enthralled by them. In fairness, I was never in the market for that speaker when I was listening to them so I haven't done a real evaluation. I'm also not sure about the aesthetics. They are a bit sleek and maybe a bit too modern looking. I'll give them another listen though. Thanks!

I have yet to hear them at a show where they sounded great. I think they have been unfairly characterized in online forums because of poor setup and equipment matching at shows.

That said, I have had them for over two years and replaced some very well known speakers that will remain nameless. Incredible bass articulation. Beautifully extended high end without etch or artifice. I would characterize them as extremely balanced and coherent and revealing of whatever you partner them with on the equipment and cabling side of the equation.

Then I sent them to Mr. Samuelson who replaced a set of $50k speakers and was not disappointed. Quite the contrary. He is using one of the lovely VAC tube amps to drive them and has used the ARC 250s and the big Berning OTL amps. I believe Grant said that he now has the best sounded quality in his room that he has ever had.

JMO of course.
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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bgupton

New Member
Sep 23, 2014
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San Francisco, CA
With a $50K max budget and wanting to buy used I'd buy a factory recertified Wilson X2 Series ll. I drive these 700 lb speakers with my Lamm ML3 which is a 30 wpc amp. Speakers have 95Db efficiency
Steve - To be clear, my budget is more like $20-30K which is why I'm looking for speakers that retail new for $40-60K.

I actually forgot about Shindo Latour field coil speakers. I think they are around $45K new. I've never seen a pair for sell used, but I'd be all over those if I could. Anyone have experience with these speakers?
 

JackD201

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Apr 20, 2010
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asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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I'm not really interested in horns. I just don't like the looks of them. I like a beefy looking speaker like the TAD R-1 (which is out of my price range) or the Focal Maestro's (which isn't). Both of these (I've read here) are efficient enough to work with the right tube amps. So I'm looking for efficient "big" speakers, but not necessarily the MOST efficient speakers.

The other really efficient speaker I've already auditioned was the DeVore 0/96's. I liked the sound on it a lot on certain material. It sounded fantastic on jazz and even some rock (Jimi Hendrix was amazing). But the sound kinda fell apart when I put on more "complex" music. When I say complex, I guess I mean music with a lot going on. My go to test track for this is the opening track of The Cure's "Disintegration".

I've found that a lot of high end speakers are voiced to handle less "complex" music like Jazz or a vocalist REALLY well, but can't really handle an explosion of sound like this Cure track. I listen to a lot of shoegazey stuff that has a thick sound with a lot going on. I want a speaker that doesn't turn it to mud. I found that the 0/96's (at least with the amplification I've heard it with) wasn't able to handle "thick" sounds as well as my Operas. I'm hoping to identify some big speakers that can, but really like how tube amplification can take the bite off of some of the more modern recordings I spend a lot of time with.

Does all of that make sense?

p.s. Try not to get caught up in the "complex" description. It's sometimes hard to describe sound as I'm sure most here know. :)

Funny, I was going to suggest the DeVores when I first read your post!
Good thing you found out for yourself they're not for you.
So my pick for your setup (and musical taste, similar to mine btw) would be a Magico Q3. Extremely easy to drive, your tube amp won't break a sweat. They'll decode every single part of complex music, and still make it sound "whole" and melodic. Oh, and if you move to solid state, it'll keep its performance intact. You should be able to find one used at the price bracket you mentioned.
As you said you'd be moving to a larger house/room, you could also consider one of the better partially active speakers. I've been very impressed by the Evolution Acoustics MMthree, which I know will play nice with tube amps, and the big Von Scheikerts, that Jack recommends above.

alexandre
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
5,599
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Seattle, WA
www.genesisloudspeakers.com
This will sound like an ad - but consider the Genesis speakers. They will handle big, complex, whatever you throw at them. With the servo-bass amplifier, your Prima Luna will have plenty of headroom too. If you can find a pair of second-hand G5.3's or G350SE, they should come in well under $20k.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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This will sound like an ad - but consider the Genesis speakers. They will handle big, complex, whatever you throw at them. With the servo-bass amplifier, your Prima Luna will have plenty of headroom too. If you can find a pair of second-hand G5.3's or G350SE, they should come in well under $20k.

There is such a thing as " Truth in advertising" :). I second that recommendation. It is a shame how often genesis is overlooked in the conversation about great Speakers. The Gen 5.3 will impress and satisfy the music Lover.
 

bgupton

New Member
Sep 23, 2014
109
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0
San Francisco, CA
Funny, I was going to suggest the DeVores when I first read your post!
Good thing you found out for yourself they're not for you.
So my pick for your setup (and musical taste, similar to mine btw) would be a Magico Q3. Extremely easy to drive, your tube amp won't break a sweat. They'll decode every single part of complex music, and still make it sound "whole" and melodic. Oh, and if you move to solid state, it'll keep its performance intact. You should be able to find one used at the price bracket you mentioned.
As you said you'd be moving to a larger house/room, you could also consider one of the better partially active speakers. I've been very impressed by the Evolution Acoustics MMthree, which I know will play nice with tube amps, and the big Von Scheikerts, that Jack recommends above.

alexandre

I'm not quite ready to write the DeVore's off yet. I loved the sound on 95% of what I threw at it. It may be that the room they were in was just too small for the volume I was throwing at it. They are such a bargain at $12K and that would free up budget to address the other components.

I know I said "no horns" above, but I'm realizing that at least some of the speakers I'm considering actually do have horns. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of the Avant Garde stuff. Even then, I'm realizing that I'm letting a past experience with a lower end Klipsch horn speaker that was way bright bias me against horns in general. I should probably be fair and give them a chance.

There are some great suggestions here and hopefully people will keep adding so I can investigate. I'm about to start another thread about 3 specific speakers I'd like to get feedback on.
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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Hey, it's great that you're keeping an open mind (and ears!)
As for the horns, I recently heard the Avant Garde Trios, and what a kick that was! If anything, I thought the presentation was very laid back, not "biting" or "horn-y" at all. And, of course, with 4 powered subs, it had plenty of bass. With 100W of tube power, it filled a massive show room, no problem! Now I want to hear how the smaller units, in their new product range, sound like...


alexandre
 

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