Pro studio power amps

bonzo75

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Hi, in Pro gear, does anyone have any feedback on Crown, Lab Gruppen, and QSC amplifiers? The Crown is 500w costing only 500 quid, I tried it and liked it, it actually kep up with my AR Ref 110 (with KT120s). Power hungry panels do better with more power, and the Crown was pretty good (the panels I was auditioning on were Analysis Audio, which do better with more power, and have a straight 8ohm impedance).

Wanted to know what other pro gear gems are out there. Also how do these compare to the likes of Rogue amps?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Hi, in Pro gear, does anyone have any feedback on Crown, Lab Gruppen, and QSC amplifiers? The Crown is 500w costing only 500 quid, I tried it and liked it, it actually kep up with my AR Ref 110 (with KT120s). Power hungry panels do better with more power, and the Crown was pretty good (the panels I was auditioning on were Analysis Audio, which do better with more power, and have a straight 8ohm impedance).

Wanted to know what other pro gear gems are out there. Also how do these compare to the likes of Rogue amps?

I'm not familiar with Lab Gruppen, but I've owned both Crown and QSC amps, and currently own a QSC powered PA speaker that is remarkably clean and powerful for something so small (an 8" mid/bass and a horn). My guess is that they meet or exceed the sonic quality of audiophile amps, but I've never been in a situation to compare them directly. Crown and QSC are good enough for creating the music we listen to, they should do just fine playing that music back, but that is not the conventional audiophile wisdom.

Tim
 

bonzo75

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I'm not familiar with Lab Gruppen, but I've owned both Crown and QSC amps, and currently own a QSC powered PA speaker that is remarkably clean and powerful for something so small (an 8" mid/bass and a horn). My guess is that they meet or exceed the sonic quality of audiophile amps, but I've never been in a situation to compare them directly. Crown and QSC are good enough for creating the music we listen to, they should do just fine playing that music back, but that is not the conventional audiophile wisdom.

Tim

Thanks. Yes, I couldn't believe my ears when it did as well, if not better, than a much more expensive AR Reference. I almost feel like a sucker for going down the AR route now.

Do you think the pre in them needs to be valve (I used the AR Ref 3), or are there good quality pro gear preamps too?
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Thanks. Yes, I couldn't believe my ears when it did as well, if not better, than a much more expensive AR Reference. I almost feel like a sucker for going down the AR route now.

Do you think the pre in them needs to be valve (I used the AR Ref 3), or are there good quality pro gear preamps too?

In the studio, or in concert (where there are lots of Crowns dropping off the backs of trucks and working for the next gig :)), the "Pre" looks like this...

sdc-siperformer3_1.jpg

...and yeah, they sound good. I wouldn't put a valve in front of something as clean and quiet as a Crown or QSC, but some people like that sort of thing. What is your source?

Tim
 

bonzo75

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Lampizator 5, going to 7
 

KeithR

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Crown and QSC are good enough for creating the music we listen to, they should do just fine playing that music back, but that is not the conventional audiophile wisdom.

Tim

This isn't true. or we could all install NS10s in our homes, but there are much better speakers.

QSC and Crown are (very) high negative feedback amps usually with fans- i'm sorry, but there are better sounding and built amplifiers. An Odyssey Stratos for example at the lower end of the spectrum.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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This isn't true. or we could all install NS10s in our homes, but there are much better speakers.

QSC and Crown are (very) high negative feedback amps usually with fans- i'm sorry, but there are better sounding and built amplifiers. An Odyssey Stratos for example at the lower end of the spectrum.

Can't remember the last time I saw a pair of NS-10s. There are much better speakers, in and out of studios. A great example is JBL's Master Reference Monitors. They sell them to audiophiles packaged with Mark Levinson amps, to pros packaged with Crowns. They don't apologize when they do, and they are sold to pros for mastering, arguably the most critical listening task in existence. But who knows? Maybe little Odyssey knows more than Harman International, I haven't heard them. Beyond that, there's is little point in arguing conventional audiophile wisdom, and there are probably many miles between us in attitude. There are many amplifier companies to choose from, many great-sounding products from the pro and domestic sides of the fence. Enjoy what sounds good to you.

Tim
 

bonzo75

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Just reading, the fan can easily be removed, so should not be an issue there.
 

jn229

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Pro amplifiers are less expensive per watt. My brother in law has a Peavy DJ amplifier mixed in with some near hi-end equipment, the sound is exceptional and defies the myth that pro gear is ruff and edgy sounding. He has low efficient Gallo 3.1 speakers, his Peavy has 750 watts into 8 ohms and the system breaths life with its dynamics.

The main reason I have chimed into this thread is my belief that modern pro amplifiers represent a better value for the dollar then many used vintage solid state amplifiers.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Just reading, the fan can easily be removed, so should not be an issue there.

Not sure I'd do that, though. Rack mount amps with fans aren't built to dissipate heat; they're built to be cooled by their fans. The simple solution is put them in a component closet, or the next room and run balanced cable. Or maybe that's not so simple. Maybe choosing pro amps that don't require fans would be more simple.

Tim
 

JackD201

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My reticence with pro amps would indeed be fan noise. Technically Pro amplifiers have the same input sensitivity ranges as domestic amps allowing the use of both voltage reference standards. Most pro-amps have attenuators. When using a consumer source just dial them all the way up. Some companies like Bryston that service both markets but don't have attenuators have a fixed 4V setting for pro-use as well as 1v and 2v settings. This got me thinking to why many SET amps have attenuators. They must be vestigial features from when they were used for professional settings in the big horn era.

As far as the sound goes, I really don't know these days. I used Crowns, QSCs and Crests when they were all linear AB. I think they were ok. I mulled the Crown Reference at one point in fact.

I have zilch experience with the SMP amps of today be they Class D or H. If all we're talking about is current per dollar, I think the answer is obvious.
 

CKKeung

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My reticence with pro amps would indeed be fan noise. Technically Pro amplifiers have the same input sensitivity ranges as domestic amps allowing the use of both voltage reference standards. Most pro-amps have attenuators. When using a consumer source just dial them all the way up. Some companies like Bryston that service both markets but don't have attenuators have a fixed 4V setting for pro-use as well as 1v and 2v settings. This got me thinking to why many SET amps have attenuators. They must be vestigial features from when they were used for professional settings in the big horn era.
As far as the sound goes, I really don't know these days. I used Crowns, QSCs and Crests when they were all linear AB. I think they were ok. I mulled the Crown Reference at one point in fact.
I have zilch experience with the SMP amps of today be they Class D or H. If all we're talking about is current per dollar, I think the answer is obvious.

I bought a MC2 1250 a few years ago after doing a direct comparison with my previous Mark Levinson 336 poweramp. The former won and was much cheaper.
The only pitafall is the loud fan noise which can be dealt with by replacing the 4 interanl fans with better low-noise ones.
IMHO MC2 poweramps are in general sweeter/more musical than Crown.
http://www.mc2-audio.co.uk/mc1250.html

Recently my friends and I compared three generations of MC2 poweramps :
The oldest MC1250 ; a Crest (OEM by MC2) ; the newest S1400.

MC2 S1400 vs Crest vs MC1250.jpg

The newest S1400 is so much better in all aspects!
Its internal fans are low-noise ones and are very quiet.
http://www.mc2-audio.co.uk/s1400.html
 

bonzo75

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Thanks - So you input your ARC 40 pre into this, did you ever demo a non valve pre in? Just wanting to make sure valve preamps work fine with them. The Analysis Audio panels are less sensitive than the S5s and will respond even better to more power
 

CKKeung

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Thanks - So you input your ARC 40 pre into this, did you ever demo a non valve pre in? Just wanting to make sure valve preamps work fine with them. The Analysis Audio panels are less sensitive than the S5s and will respond even better to more power

Yes, I previously paired my MC1250 with a Mark Levinson No.32 preamp. They worked fine together.
But I like the ARC40 more.
 

LL21

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Thanks - So you input your ARC 40 pre into this, did you ever demo a non valve pre in? Just wanting to make sure valve preamps work fine with them. The Analysis Audio panels are less sensitive than the S5s and will respond even better to more power

You have Analysis Audio panels? Interesting...which ones if I may ask? Was reading about them...some commonality with the Apogee speakers I think.
 

CKKeung

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The Analysis Audio panels are less sensitive than the S5s and will respond even better to more power

Are Analysis Audio panels as power-hungry as the late Apogee?

If so, they may need two S1400 in bridged mode.
 

bonzo75

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You have Analysis Audio panels? Interesting...which ones if I may ask? Was reading about them...some commonality with the Apogee speakers I think.

The Analysis were inspired by Apogees, and look similar but sound different. Those who like them think they are much better. That is my opinion as well as what research on audioasylum tells me, even the Apogee forum has some Analysis fans. I find the Apogees lack the midrange magic of the Logans, while Analysis do it as well. Difference between Stats and Ribbon/magnets is that vocals on Stats are more thin and transparent, while Analysis do more full bodied. On female vocals both are equal, while male vocals Analysis are better than Logans IMO.

Analysis go down as deep as Apogees, but slight difference. Apogees are dynamic for rock - Analysis are better suited for classical. They play classical with zero compression. And the Piano on an Analysis is the best I have heard, nothing comes close. Boxes sound constipated, Logans can't handle it, Estelons play the piano like extreme digital. Also, the soundstage in the Analysis is the largest I have heard, much more than Logans or Apogees.

I haven't bought them but have been auditioning the Omegas which are currently my dream speakers. The Amphitryons are indeed the final speakers for those who like them, but my flat the Omegas are fine. You need to mod the crossovers - both the US and the UK distributor do that - the US distributor has duelund Caps crossovers with JPS labs wiring in the Analysis, the UK distributor (whose ears are the best I have heard among dealers in the UK for sound and classical) also mods the crossovers and uses LFD audio wiring. His LFD audio power cable also outperforms the Valhalla at a much cheaper rate.

I haven't heard a properly set up new Soundlabs, as the closest is in Paris. Will do so sometime soon. They won't fit my current flat, so the AA should be the final. Those who have heard both say both are equally good with different characteristics.

The UK distributor uses NAT audio amping, still the best I have heard, but the NATs run too hot - SET monos at 120w each. Not practical. The US distributor makes his own hybrid class D amps called Arion, monos of 500w * 8 and 1000w * 4 ohms. They use tubed input, duelund caps, and do not use the standard switching class D supply. At $6k, I know of two people who seem to prefer them as much as their LAMM reference while running the Analysis.

The panels like power but straight 8 ohm impedance unlike Apogees which need 1ohm impedance control
 
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CKKeung

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The panels like power but straight 8 ohm impedance unlike Apogees which need 1ohm impedance control

Thanks bonzo75 for the detailed description and explanation.
So Analysis Audio is likely to be both better sonically yet less poweramp-demanding than Apogees.

If the impedance remains around 8 ohm, one S1400 may handle it very well.
In Hong Kong the net price of a new MC2 S1400 stereo poweramp is about USD3.5k. A very good buy in my humble opinion.
 

bonzo75

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Thanks bonzo75 for the detailed description and explanation.
So Analysis Audio is likely to be both better sonically yet less poweramp-demanding than Apogees.

If the impedance remains around 8 ohm, one S1400 may handle it very well.
In Hong Kong the net price of a new MC2 S1400 stereo poweramp is about USD3.5k. A very good buy in my humble opinion.

Thanks there is a dealer not far off. When I get round to buying I will definitely audition these
 

CKKeung

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