Bricasti M28 Amp
- Thread starter Worldcat
- Start date
I am just speculating here
but having just reread the review
I don't think he panned the amp just not the same as the two he compared with
But I also wonder as MF did what it would sound like with the boulder or true balanced preamp
My memory is that JA was not overly impressed with the dartzeel balance connection and the dartzeel sounds better with 50ohm connection
Was he hearing an impedance mismatch issue between amp and preamp?
My 2 ozzie cents
but having just reread the review
I don't think he panned the amp just not the same as the two he compared with
But I also wonder as MF did what it would sound like with the boulder or true balanced preamp
My memory is that JA was not overly impressed with the dartzeel balance connection and the dartzeel sounds better with 50ohm connection
Was he hearing an impedance mismatch issue between amp and preamp?
My 2 ozzie cents
the darTZeel preamp that Fremer uses (same as mine) sounds best thru the RCA outputs and inputs; which is how Fremer uses it. the 50 ohm connection does sound slightly better but for reviews Fremer does not use that for obvious reasons. that dart pre is not optimal using XLR's (it uses a transformer). the new dart pre (soon to ship) does sound great with XLR's. the dart monoblocks are great thru XLR's.
so while he likely did not use XLR cables, he also did not use the 50 ohm for the review comparison.
Thx Mike
from stereophile measurement of dartzeel 18ns
Turning to the NHB-18NS's line-stage performance, I looked first at the balanced input. Measured at the balanced outputs with the input set to "Pro," this gave a maximum gain of 9.3dB. Switching in the –6dB input pad gave 4.85dB. Absolute polarity was preserved, indicating that the XLRs are wired with pin 2 hot. The input impedance was an extremely low 640 ohms, while the output impedance was a high 2500 ohms at low and midrange frequencies, rising to 3080 ohms at 20kHz. The input impedance is too low for many source components to give their best performance, the output impedance a little high for some power amplifiers.
The balanced input's frequency response didn't vary with different settings of the volume control, but it did peak by 0.75–1.25dB at 42kHz before precipitously rolling off (fig.3, top pair of traces). The audioband response was flat with the input switch set to "Pro," but with the input set to "–6dB," a –0.75dB trough appeared in the treble (fig.3, lower pair of traces). A glance under the preamp's cover told me that the balanced input and output appear to be realized with transformers, which are presumably the cause of the response anomalies. Even so, I don't feel the DarTZeel's balanced inputs and outputs to be of much practical use, the unbalanced jacks being better behaved.
Having a bit of experience with differential power amps most don't sound their best single ended, and if the xlr on the dartzeel is not very good
where does it leave us.... with the power amp not fully tested....oh for the boulder 2110
from stereophile measurement of dartzeel 18ns
Turning to the NHB-18NS's line-stage performance, I looked first at the balanced input. Measured at the balanced outputs with the input set to "Pro," this gave a maximum gain of 9.3dB. Switching in the –6dB input pad gave 4.85dB. Absolute polarity was preserved, indicating that the XLRs are wired with pin 2 hot. The input impedance was an extremely low 640 ohms, while the output impedance was a high 2500 ohms at low and midrange frequencies, rising to 3080 ohms at 20kHz. The input impedance is too low for many source components to give their best performance, the output impedance a little high for some power amplifiers.
The balanced input's frequency response didn't vary with different settings of the volume control, but it did peak by 0.75–1.25dB at 42kHz before precipitously rolling off (fig.3, top pair of traces). The audioband response was flat with the input switch set to "Pro," but with the input set to "–6dB," a –0.75dB trough appeared in the treble (fig.3, lower pair of traces). A glance under the preamp's cover told me that the balanced input and output appear to be realized with transformers, which are presumably the cause of the response anomalies. Even so, I don't feel the DarTZeel's balanced inputs and outputs to be of much practical use, the unbalanced jacks being better behaved.
Having a bit of experience with differential power amps most don't sound their best single ended, and if the xlr on the dartzeel is not very good
where does it leave us.... with the power amp not fully tested....oh for the boulder 2110
Interesting point, since when Brian runs his M28 amps at audio shows where the sound has been universally praised he drives it directly from the M1 DAC which is a fully balanced design. He also makes a point of mentioning that in that configuration it is running true differentially balanced electronics from the source to the speakers.
Yeah, at AXPONA, it was Brian's laptop to the M1 to the M28s, to the speakers.
So, I'm thinking - laptop..... really??? and no preamp... really ???
And it's fully balanced 'cuz M1 is dual mono, and the sound is incredible...... (imho)
Also the Aurender W20 to the M1.
Brian will be visiting here in a few weeks for a special open house as we demonstrate the M28s.
Yeah, they were running that too, which caught my attention 'cuz I'm so "over" having to "baby" my mac, the software, etc, etc, etc.
With the aurender - just "load and go".
I have now added Bricasti's response to the Web reprint of the M28 review.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/...noblock-power-amplifier-manufacturers-comment
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I have started reading this thread from the last page (I know ...) and imediately felt sorry for a Briscatti. A bad review may be a real blow for a small company.
But then I've read the actual review, and ... was surprised. It is not a bad review by any measure !
It seems the amps is the polar opposite to Soulution (which I personally hate) and very much like my MSB monos (or Pass XA), i.e. not the fastest or most articulated around, BUT having great, fleshed out and fully saturated midrange.
Add to that the text book measured performance, and it seems like a very interesting amp indeed. IMO Briscatti has no reason to worry about.
Having said that, their response was a bit unnecessary and blow the whole thing out of proportion.
But then I've read the actual review, and ... was surprised. It is not a bad review by any measure !
It seems the amps is the polar opposite to Soulution (which I personally hate) and very much like my MSB monos (or Pass XA), i.e. not the fastest or most articulated around, BUT having great, fleshed out and fully saturated midrange.
Add to that the text book measured performance, and it seems like a very interesting amp indeed. IMO Briscatti has no reason to worry about.
Having said that, their response was a bit unnecessary and blow the whole thing out of proportion.
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Let me quote John Atkinson's summary here:
Its measured performance reveals Bricasti's M28 to be a worthy stablemate to the company's superb-measuring and equally superb-sounding M1 D/A processor.
Its output protection circuit kicked in when he tried to measure its max power output at 2 Ohms, but that doesn't mean it will not be able to successfully drive speakers that dip below 2 Ohms, like Wilson Sasha or Alexia. It will all depend on chosen SPL and music content.
You said "text book", Atkinson said "reveals". There are no specific references to the M28's measurements in what you quote. Its obvious Atkinson worded it to be polite here.
If an amp can't be measured into a 2ohm load it can't drive a 2ohm load. Period. There are plenty of amps that will work with spks that dip below 2ohms. That doesn't mean they can drive a 2ohm load
If an amp can't be measured into a 2ohm load it can't drive a 2ohm load. Period. There are plenty of amps that will work with spks that dip below 2ohms. That doesn't mean they can drive a 2ohm load
Kingsrule, I don't understand why you keep asserting this, because the M28s drove Fremer's Wilson MAXX 3's very well, and as another example Fidelis, a Bricasti dealer in NH, drives Wilson Sashas with them to great effect, as loud as one could possibly want. The fact of the matter is the M28 will drive practically any real world speaker load without limitations. But don't take my word for it: please go and actually listen to them.
Again, the M28's couldn't drive a 2ohm load in the Stereophile review.
Being able to drive a speaker is an ENTIRELY different concept. There are receivers that will play Wilsons "as loud as you could possibly want". I really don't understand how you cannot understand this.
Frequency response was measured into 2 ohms; John said the protection circuits cut in at 128 W when he tried to measure THD up to clipping into a 2 ohm load. So it will drive a 2 ohm load, just not sustained at high output. I assume "Kingsrule" is distinguishing among amplifiers that can sustain full-power into a 2-ohm load, those that can drive 2-ohm loads but only briefly at full power, and those that cannot handle a 2 ohm load under any conditions. The M28 falls into the second category. Note the manufacturer's specs do not rate power into 2 ohms.
Whatever - Don
Whatever - Don
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