Mono Cartridges

bonzo75 · Dec 4, 2023

mtemur said:
Modern profile almost always in better contact with the groove walls and reads better both mono and stereo records. The only problem is bottoming due to wide groove width (25um) but it rarely happens.

I did experiments with Miyajima mono 1.0, 0.7, mono switches, trying external EQ, inbuilt EQ in EMT phono (EMT phono has a lot of mono flexibility), there are other phonos with mono switches, and ultimately found that the best mono playback was using the Red Sparrow on Vyger, including a direct comparison with miyajima mono on a Garrard. So, I gave up trying mono carts for a premium approach. Of course if someone is running a SPU on a Garrard, maybe the Miya mono or another mono cart could sound better.

As for monos, I don't believe in modern monos recut from stereo, but only monos from the golden era.

miniguy · Dec 4, 2023

Solypsa said:
Would not, if anything, the use of a stereo cutter head possibly introduce unintended vertical movement? In this case it's vertical compliance at issue. Playback stylus profile would, if anything, relate to the cutting stylus profile used and settings for the cut...

Yes. Here is an example: this Jazz Messengers modern mono reissue exhibits severe distortion on plucked bass notes when played with my Miyajima mono cart, but plays perfectly fine with my stereo cart. This implies the presence of spurious vertical information due to the stereo cutter head used in mastering.

mtemur · Dec 4, 2023

Solypsa said:
There is some debate as to which modern one is best but doesn't change the basic concept.

I agree completely.

Yeti · Dec 4, 2023

A 1956 issue of Klemperer Eroica is sounding nicely full bodied with my SPU Century (Shibata) and the mono button on my preamp.

bonzo75 · Dec 4, 2023

Yeti said:
A 1956 issue of Klemperer Eroica is sounding nicely full bodied with my SPU Century (Shibata) and the mono button on my preamp.

View attachment 121138

this mono is an excellent eroica better than the stereo

Argonaut · Dec 4, 2023

miniguy said:
Yes. Here is an example: this Jazz Messengers modern mono reissue exhibits severe distortion on plucked bass notes when played with my Miyajima mono cart, but plays perfectly fine with my stereo cart. This implies the presence of spurious vertical information due to the stereo cutter head used in mastering.

No one is disputing this … it is in essence a stereo cut record !

Argonaut · Dec 4, 2023

bonzo75 said:
I did experiments with Miyajima mono 1.0, 0.7, mono switches, trying external EQ, inbuilt EQ in EMT phono (EMT phono has a lot of mono flexibility), there are other phonos with mono switches, and ultimately found that the best mono playback was using the Red Sparrow on Vyger, including a direct comparison with miyajima mono on a Garrard. So, I gave up trying mono carts for a premium approach. Of course if someone is running a SPU on a Garrard, maybe the Miya mono or another mono cart could sound better.

As for monos, I don't believe in modern monos recut from stereo, but only monos from the golden era.

I concur with your last sentence , However , as far as I am aware you have not directly compared the Red Sparrow cartridge A/B against a height quality dedicated mono cartridge both transducing the same true 25um mono cut recording ? On the same turntable ?

Argonaut · Dec 4, 2023

mtemur said:
I know that, that's why I also mentioned suspension unit. I'm trying to point out that a mono record in mono era in a purely mono setup without even the word stereo spoken is cut with a cutter head which has a stylus profile similar to the stereo cutter head's. That cutter head's stylus profile is replicated better by modern stylus profiles compared to conical/spherical. And that's why modern profiles conform better and makes a better contact with groove walls.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one

bonzo75 · Dec 4, 2023

Argonaut said:
I concur with your last sentence , However , as far as I am aware you have not directly compared the Red Sparrow cartridge A/B against a height quality dedicated mono cartridge both transducing the same true 25um mono cut recording ? On the same turntable ?

what is height quality? I compared the two different Miyajima heights (1.0 and 0.7) against each other on the same table. I don’t know what the marketing hype is, delta is very low and difficult to make any consistent judgement like Miyajima claims. I think it is their marketing hype else each company will have come out with two mono cartridges.

i did not compare Miyajima or another mono on vyger against red sparrow on vyger. I haven’t compared other non mono carts at all anywhere in fact apart from Miyajima

At the end I am basing my judgement that the findings on monos I read or experienced on forums almost 99 percent of the cases come from people with no quality monos as compared to the vyger RS playback

the vyger RS on mono playback was quite superior. In that same system, would you have been able to beat it with a mono switch, or by mounting some other quality mono cart on that table, or found some other unique synergy, maybe with Schroeder LT and a mono cart? Possibly. Not interested in finding out. What I need to hear is a stop me in my tracks mono playback better than the vyger RS.

also, I heard monos for only a short time at Mike’s on his Miyajima, but I found his stereo much superior at that time. For me, monos should be such that you don’t need to listen to stereo except for the recordings which are good on stereo. On the vyger RS you could easily do that. Any recording that was good, stereo or mono, was equally thrilling. Any bad recording was bad, stereo or mono. You shouldn’t have to think. Just reach on your shelf and pull out the LP.

You will find that somewhere around 2017 or 2018 I initiated or participated in a lot of mono cartridge/phono switch EQ based threads both here and on audionirvana. Then the interest totally died down. My first visit to Tom’s was because he had Miyajima monos and an external EQ. I took some monos to tang’s to experiment on his EMT

If anything I would rather pursue 78s by getting a cartridge for those and setting up a separate playback for 78s. if nothing else then to get Annie Fischers Beethoven sonatas on 78s.

Argonaut · Dec 4, 2023

bonzo75 said:
i did not compare Miyajima or another mono on vyger against red sparrow on vyger. I haven’t compared other non mono carts at all anywhere in fact apart from Miyajima

Exactly my point …How are you so sure in your considered opinion therefore that a stereo Red Sparrow is all that a dedicated true mono pressing aficionado would need ?

bonzo75 · Dec 4, 2023

Argonaut said:
Exactly my point …How are you so sure in your considered opinion therefore that a stereo Red Sparrow is all that a dedicated true mono pressing aficionado would need ?

Because it plays it to the highest quality I heard. The fact that you could potentially better it, does not mean you need a mono cart anymore than you might want to compare a cart that you/I have not compared to the vyger RS. It plays it as good as it plays stereo LPs.

unlike mono theory, you do not hear it not playing mono LPs - if that was the case it would have played stereo much better than it plays mono making you think dang I am not enjoying mono records need to get something else.

the fact that it plays both equally is enough for me. Now if one does not like it, he will not like stereo as well with it, but that is a cartridge sonic choice, not a mono Vs stereo choice.

Argonaut · Dec 4, 2023

bonzo75 said:
Because it plays it to the highest quality I heard. The fact that you could potentially better it, does not mean you need a mono cart anymore than you might want to compare a cart that you/I have not compared to the vyger RS. It plays it as good as it plays stereo LPs.

unlike mono theory, you do not hear it not playing mono LPs - if that was the case it would have played stereo much better than it plays mono making you think dang I am not enjoying mono records need to get something else.

the fact that it plays both equally is enough for me. Now if one does not like it, he will not like stereo as well with it, but that is a cartridge sonic choice, not a mono Vs stereo choice.

I quite agree … were one to go for a cartridge that performed extremely well transducing a post 70’s mono pressing and astonishingly with any stereo pressing then the TW Red Sparrow is without doubt an exceptional pick-up … However !

bonzo75 · Dec 4, 2023

Argonaut said:
I quite agree … were one to go for a cartridge that performed extremely well transduction a post 70’s mono pressing and astonishingly with any stereo pressing then the TW Red Sparrow is without doubt exceptional … However !

so what are you planning to do. Get two linear trackers with one having a proper mono? That will be the only fair compare.

bonzo75 · Dec 4, 2023

Argonaut said:
I quite agree … were one to go for a cartridge that performed extremely well transducing a post 70’s mono pressing and astonishingly with any stereo pressing then the TW Red Sparrow is without doubt an exceptional pick-up … However !

pre 70s mono, not post, not interested in those

Argonaut · Dec 4, 2023

bonzo75 said:
so what are you planning to do. Get two linear trackers with one having a proper mono? That will be the only fair compare.

That scenario would of course be close to the definitive test however as I chose to stay with a single VLT on the Indian I will just have to slum it and rely on an A/B comparison swapping between the Sparrow and the Sumile mono … perhaps supplemented with audio recording and in room measurements to refer back and forth .

bonzo75 · Dec 4, 2023

Argonaut said:
That scenario would of course be close to the definitive test however as I chose to stay with a single VLT on the Indian I will just have to slum it and rely on an A/B comparison swapping between the Sparrow and the Sumile mono … perhaps supplemented with audio recording and in room measurements ?!?!?!

ok. this will take a few years. Because, you will have to first dial in your vyger RS for stereo. That will take a while. Then, you will have to dial in vyger sumile. Hopefully by that time you can set up vyger easily. Then, you will have to do a few back and forths (if the delta is minor it does not matter but if delta is big you will hear it quality).

the danger is that you do the swap before the set up is proper

Argonaut · Dec 4, 2023

bonzo75 said:
ok. this will take a few years.

What !!!

bonzo75 · Dec 4, 2023

Argonaut said:
What !!!

How long do you think till a new system settles down into optimal state with the vyger RS and you are comfortable operating the vyger to swap carts so that each cart is well aligned? For example, Jeroen has had it for years and he does not like to swap out the RS as it is well aligned and he does not want to screw up the setting. He uses that as reference. That’s why he never put his Opus on it. He swaps out his other carts on 4 arms on techdas and on his Dohmann quite easily. Some might do it more naturally dunno.

Lynnot · Dec 4, 2023

Good evening,

did anybody ever try a contemporary late 50s early 60s mono cartridge for his historical monos?

Best regards, Tony

mtemur · Dec 4, 2023

Argonaut said:
We are going to have to agree to disagree on that one

I don't understand on what we agree to disagree?
- The fact that cutter head's stylus (not the whole cutter head, not the electronics just the stylus which is diamond, sapphire or ruby.) is similar both for mono and stereo?
- Similar stylus cut similar grooves both for stereo and mono apart from groove width and vertical modulation?
- Or the fact that modern stylus profiles read the information in the grooves more precisely by making better contact with groove walls compared to spherical?

BTW I mean pure mono record cut by mono equipment during mono era when I simply write mono.

Mono Cartridges

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