The Upgrade Path Mixing and Maxing Components.

Gregadd

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I guess at some point we have been to both types of mechanics. You know the old craftsman who can just listen to your car or take it for a drive and tell you exactly what's wrong with it. Then there is the other who can provide an equally valid assessment using the latest measurement devices.

Without getting into a food fight over wasting your money on cables, the room and speaker are the only important things that matter. Let's assume we have a layman who has issues with his system.

Our imaginary friend might say my system sucks and I want to start over.
I like my system but it has no bass.
I like my system but my favorite record sounds bad.
My system is fine at low volume but when I turn it up everything falls apart.
The high frequencies make my ears bleed

Part I.
What easy inexpensive methods exist to properly assess system performance?
Maybe the first place to start is was the system properly set up in the first place? I say read the manuals. They tend to be more candid than ad copy.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Easy and inexpensive? Start by looking at the room and listening to it: Check for a good mix of hard and soft stuff. Speakers placed appropriately for their design that aren't sitting on uncovered ceramic tile floors in a glass-walled vestibule, etc. Then I'd talk in the room, clap my hands, maybe play a bit of guitar. Will it be perfect? No. Ethan could make it better. But if it meets the basic domestic listening criteria and sounds neither dead or ringing, it will be good enough for "easy and inexpensive."

"I like my system but it has no bass."

-- Small stand-mounts or bookshelves? Try a good sub. Sats? Probably has no lower mids either. Time to upgrade speakers.

"I like my system but my favorite record sounds bad."

-- See how the system sounds with a good reference recording. Good? Equalization: It can't cure bad recordings, but it can make them listenable without buggering the good ones in the process.

"My system is fine at low volume but when I turn it up everything falls apart."

-- Sounds like a headroom issue. Put an amp with more current, more watts in the system and see if it solves the problem.

"The high frequencies make my ears bleed."

-- What kind of tweeters do we have? Horns? That's probably it. Ribbons? A good chance. Metal? In some cases, yes. This could, however, also be in the electronics or the crossovers. Try a pair of speakers you know in the system and see what you get.

P
 

Robh3606

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Why not get a halfway decent test CD that has channel balance Channel Phase, Frequency Sweeps and so on. Almost all of the problems you list could be simple set-up issues.

No Bass Check Phase

Record Sound Lousy Clean Stylus check tracking force and anti skate

System falls apart could be a simple gain issue or simply not enough power

Highs Hurt Ears, That one you got me on asside from turn the treble down

Anyone who has been doing this for a while knows what to look for and where to look. A newbe won't. So that makes it not so easy for them becasue they have no real knowledge of how a stereo system works.

Rob:)
 

flez007

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Agree with all above, room first, speaker placement second, system balance thiird ( here I mean looking for obvious disruptions in system matching, etc).
 

Gregadd

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Agree with all above, room first, speaker placement second, system balance thiird ( here I mean looking for obvious disruptions in system matching, etc).


While the room may be first in order of mportance it may be last in order of assessment.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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While the room may be first in order of mportance it may be last in order of assessment.

Why would that be? If the room is causing the problems, evaluation/upgrading of gear will not fix it.

Tim
 

audioguy

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In my estimation and personal esperience, the speakers and room/speaker interaction represent 95%+++++++++ of what we hear. If someone is still so seeped in changing components looking for the source and hence the solution to the problem. then they deserve to have the problem !!!

There is WAY too much scientific and accurate and demonstrable information available for anyone to ignore that clearly demonstrates that the room MUST be dealt with first. But then again, this is "high end" audio !!
 

Gregadd

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Because it's been habitual for audiophiles to attack anomalies in sound by buying "better" components, rather than addressing the true source of the problem.

Lee

Lee you have jumped ahead to part II. Why and how do we choose equipment?

P.
I suppose we could start withe room. But if we change equipment don't we have to measure again? So we check the other factors.. Two questions exist is the system launcihng a good signal? Is the room altering that signal? In the real world we usally end up making constant adjustments. Trying to achieve the right balance.
 

Ron Party

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In my estimation and personal esperience, the speakers and room/speaker interaction represent 95%+++++++++ of what we hear. If someone is still so seeped in changing components looking for the source and hence the solution to the problem. then they deserve to have the problem !!!

There is WAY too much scientific and accurate and demonstrable information available for anyone to ignore that clearly demonstrates that the room MUST be dealt with first. But then again, this is "high end" audio !!
Same old problem, isn't it: many in the "high end" are bent on listening to their gear instead of the music.
 

Gregadd

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In my estimation and personal esperience, the speakers and room/speaker interaction represent 95%+++++++++ of what we hear. If someone is still so seeped in changing components looking for the source and hence the solution to the problem. then they deserve to have the problem !!!

There is WAY too much scientific and accurate and demonstrable information available for anyone to ignore that clearly demonstrates that the room MUST be dealt with first. But then again, this is "high end" audio !!

I don't agree with the 95% thing. I suppose we can measure the room without any equipment and music playing. Ultimately we have have to launch a good signal to see what the room is doing to that signal if anything. Unfortunately there is plenty of systems that are not launching a good signal.
 

FrantzM

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In my estimation and personal esperience, the speakers and room/speaker interaction represent 95%+++++++++ of what we hear. If someone is still so seeped in changing components looking for the source and hence the solution to the problem. then they deserve to have the problem !!!

There is WAY too much scientific and accurate and demonstrable information available for anyone to ignore that clearly demonstrates that the room MUST be dealt with first. But then again, this is "high end" audio !!

Audioguy

I went to a CES some years ago, in which I heard a Sony demo with Wilson Watt /Puppy and some Subs .. I thought it could be some Sony assault on the Highest End , the way Denon as done at times with their POA and PMA? amps, preamps etc ... No it was a Sony Esprit Receiver being quite comfortable wit the WP and the sound was above decent .. I knew then that the speakers were the thing and since they had to be in a room ...

Thus began my conversion to my present position on music reproduction. The journey was expensive but now I truly .."get" it ... You get the right speakers for your environment. Get them to integrate as to provide their best performance under you particular conditions (including your passive room treatments) and you are 96% there :) ( I had to "up" you by a percentage point) , then you can throw money at the rest
 

RUR

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I don't agree with the 95% thing. I suppose we can measure the room without any equipment and music playing. Ultimately we have have to launch a good signal to see what the room is doing to that signal if anything. Unfortunately there is plenty of systems that are not launching a good signal.
Greg, have you installed any room treatments, yet? If you haven't, then I would respectfully suggest that you're disarmed in any discussion of their contribution to SQ. 95% may be too high a figure, but I assure you that the figure is very large.
 

flez007

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Once I tteated my dedicated room, system swapping ratio colapsed...
 

FrantzM

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Hi

It is important to remark that differences between components have closing down those past years. I can understand the dim view some may have for reviews, it was however interesting that in the review of the (relatively) affordable Kismet amplifiers, they were favorably compared to the Solution by J.V. Now that's not saying there no differences and there aren't better components than other..
Differences are VERY substantial (subjectively and objectively)between a properly treated room and one that's not. I think audiophiles are slowly coming to that realization and more and ore you see them assessing the room first then the equipment. This is unfortunately not always easy as in the case of a living room that is truly a "living" room ... not all have the luxury of a dedicated place for their listening (or viewing) pleasures.

Room treatment and Speakers remain nonetheless priority number one and should be the largest part of a system budget :.. The proportion that should be allotted to these have to be well over 60% of your total budget, maybe closer to 70%. Of course one has to keep in mind that the speaker must be driven so ... Cabling? my view is so dim of what cables do (or not) that I see their proportion like less than 3% , even 1% shall not hurt...
 

flez007

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Just to add a little more salt here, I remamber an "accident" I had with my large soeakers some years back where I needed to have them shipped to the manufacturer, I pulled down a pair of small Mission speakers I had around just to play music for my visitors at dinner that time, the rest of the big system remained the same.

Well, not bad at all! Cables had 10x more cost than those little Missions whuch, properly set in a well treated room, sounded very well, so well that I came to realize that I could live with that setup ( maybe with a help of a subwoofer) for acoustic and jazz sessions.
 

Gregadd

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I think we are getting a little OT. Please address the problems in your systems in the manner you see fit. My years in audio I have seen just about every system parameter anointed as the sine qua non. Get it right and you will be in audio heaven. Get it wrong or ignore it and you will be in audio hell. Usually the argument was accompanied by a product that would cure the problem.
We have a resident acoustician and a thread devoted to acoustics. There are also many inexpensive effective ways to evaluate your speakers performance in your room

I think the point is the parameter you ignore will come back to bite you.

For example my friend Raul thinks it's the front end that counts. If you don't get it fom the source you are just wasting your time. Sorry Raul. I did not mean to put you on the hot spot again.:eek:


As for me bieng unarmed. Please remember mine is not the only room I've listened in.
 

Robh3606

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I suppose we could start withe room. But if we change equipment don't we have to measure again?

Not if you don't change the speakers, reposition them or change your listening position. If you change an amp you shouldn't see it in room measurements at all unless there are distinct frequency response changes that goes along with the change. It could be an issue going fron SS to tubes but other than that I would say you normally don't have too.

Rob:)
 

Gregadd

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Not if you don't change the speakers, reposition them or change your listening position. If you change an amp you shouldn't see it in room measurements at all unless there are distinct frequency response changes that goes along with the change. It could be an issue going fron SS to tubes but other than that I would say you normally don't have too.

Rob:)

There is a boat load of qualifiers there. If that works for you go ahead. Do the room first.
 

Gregadd

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Gregadd

I must say that the whole point of a forum is to discuss. There will be conflicting point of views, thus the debate. We are all here to learn and share our experiences. It seems to me that a consensus was developing on the subject: Addressing the room and the speaker-room interface.

Now you may disagree with that: Your prerogative. Being told, however and I am quoting here is not concurrent to polite discussions IMHO .. others may have different opinions but this sentence was to me inappropriate .. I am off this thread .


Frantz =Sorry if you were offended.:)
As the originator of the thread I thoiught the problem with your system is not important. The only important thing is that you determine what the problem is. Rather than get into a debate in this thread over what is most important,I invited mebers to pursue the probblems as they see fit. Ethan is already deep into that discussion of the importance of room acoustics, I assume. I would be happy to start such a thread for you, if you desire.

Moreover if a consensus was reached, there is no harm in moving on.
 

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