Crosstalk: digital more like Vinyl?

dallasjustice

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I am a digital dude. But I can't deny that sometimes vinyl systems can offer something digital struggles to deliver. We often hear folks pay a compliment to digital when they say it sounds "analog."

I love using DSP in my system. Recently, I switched over to Acourate.
http://www.audiovero.de/en/acourate.html

Since then I've been introduced to a setting in the Acourate Convolver called "flow." The basic idea is to set the parameters to permit some small frequency dependent crosstalk. The author's words explain it well:
http://digitalroomcorrection.hk/http___www.digitalroomcorrection.hk_/AcourateFlow.html

In summary, Uli's theory is that vinyl's perceived technical weakness (high cartridge crosstalk) can actually be very beneficial to better stereo reproduction.

I've tried it out and I really like it. It's not a huge difference. However, the music does sound a little more natural without any loss of resolution. It's cool!

Can DSP really be used to make digital playback sound more like vinyl?

Michael.
 

jkeny

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Very interesting, Michael - thanks for posting
In your listening how does this change the sound - Does it give more definition to the soundstage - not pinpoint accuracy but more solidity?
Is the idea somewhat similar to crossfeed in headphones?
The psychoacoustics of this interest me too - any research into this idea, I wonder?

Lots of questions,I know but, I'm an inquisitive type :)
 

dallasjustice

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I posted a link with an explanation from Dr. Ulirich "Uli" Brueggemann. He developed Acourate. I believe he covered some of these topics at AES in a paper he wrote for AES. I am not a member so I can't access it. Maybe he didn't talk about crosstalk in the paper. I can't be sure.

There are some parameters that are adjustable. The resolution isn't really changed. The image is pretty much the same. It's just more relaxing. The only conscious difference I've been able to pick out is some loud and beamy HF sound is shifted further back into the soundstage behind the dominant speaker for the sound. The result is a more relaxing experience. Also, the "relax" effect is more pronounced with "bad" or "aggressive" recordings.

Very interesting, Michael - thanks for posting
In your listening how does this change the sound - Does it give more definition to the soundstage - not pinpoint accuracy but more solidity?
Is the idea somewhat similar to crossfeed in headphones?
The psychoacoustics of this interest me too - any research into this idea, I wonder?

Lots of questions,I know but, I'm an inquisitive type :)
 

dallasjustice

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I have to say that I don't always like it better than without the "flow". For some recordings it sounds better off. I am just experimenting with it. So I haven't really sorted out which recordings sound better and which ones not so much.
 

dallasjustice

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You don't need to use the convolver to try it out. Here's a link to his convolution engine which also has a 64 bit FIR dithered volume control and the "flow" setting. It's free to tryout for 14 days. You just have to install it and select acourate ASIO as output device. You also need to select your playback device in acourate convolver.
 

jkeny

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There is lots of research into how to minimize these phono playback weakneses and I used to visit the stacks in a large university decades ago and read the AES stuff. It is true, as I have said all along and some others as well, that vinyl limitations are and can sound good. I also have said give me digital up to about 2Khz or so and vinyl from there and you will have one sweet sound. Vinyl sucks at the low stuff but through crosstalk and some other things it does help out stereo in the higher frequencies. Digital will perfect "LP sound". This is the beginning of folks taking back control of their sound, press on Dallas.....
Yes, Tomelex, I would say you are correct in what you say - digital can & will outperform analogue eventually.
By incorporating more psychoacoustic learnings into audio we should get a far more enjoyable reproductions system than we currently have. There are lots of exciting developments happening.
 

puroagave

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this one is lost on me. taking one of the worst technical aspects of LP playback and applying it to digital to make it sound 'better', how much cross talk are you talking about? Allaerts claims -70 db for his carts and most others are between -40 to -30 db. center fill is one aspect how about stage width and depth? for analog recordings i own both in LP and RBCD, the stereo effect is almost always greater (width, height & depth) with LP even taking into consideration the higher cross talk.
 

jkeny

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this one is lost on me. taking one of the worst technical aspects of LP playback and applying it to digital to make it sound 'better', how much cross talk are you talking about? Allaerts claims -70 db for his carts and most others are between -40 to -30 db. center fill is one aspect how about stage width and depth? for analog recordings i own both in LP and RBCD, the stereo effect is almost always greater (width, height & depth) with LP even taking into consideration the higher cross talk.

Yes, that's why I was asking Dallas what he heard in relation to soundstage.
 

dallasjustice

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digital can & will outperform analogue eventually
I know you didn't intend anything incendiary with this. But given the darker history of this forum, I REALLY don't want to go there. I think there's a lot digital can learn from vinyl and much vinyl can learn from digital. I don't want to get into a discussion concerning which is "better." :)
 

dallasjustice

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Yes, that's why I was asking Dallas what he heard in relation to soundstage.
It's not like that. The soundstage doesn't shift. It's a much more subtle or subconscious effect. I think I like it a little more with metal/rock tracks.
 

rockitman

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I know you didn't intend anything incendiary with this. But given the darker history of this forum, I REALLY don't want to go there. I think there's a lot digital can learn from vinyl and much vinyl can learn from digital. I don't want to get into a discussion concerning which is "better." :)

The problem is...most digital only fans have no well sorted vinyl playback or are working off distant memories of 1970's vinyl reproduction on average gear, whereas most vinyl proponents now a days have great digital gear too. The have a stronger arguing point/opinion for their preferred sound reproduction.
 

dallasjustice

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The problem is...most digital only fans have no well sorted vinyl playback or are working off distant memories of 1970's vinyl reproduction on average gear, whereas most vinyl proponents now a days have great digital gear too. The have a stronger arguing point/opinion for their preferred sound reproduction.

Thanks for your perspective. You may be correct. But what does that have to with DSP'd frequency dependent crosstalk used to make playback sound better?
 

garylkoh

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Thanks for posting this, Michael.

I had been curious about this phenomenon because one album stuck out like a sore thumb - Friday Night in San Francisco. Universally regarded as a fabulous album. However, when I got the SACD ripped, and played through a music server, it was unconvincing and sounded pretty bad. The guitars were left channel/right channel with almost no bleed. May be it's the crosstalk on vinyl playback that makes it sound great.
 

esldude

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I think he is onto something, but maybe isn't quite all the way there.

If you do pan pot stereo, locating things with ILD (interchannel level difference) that works at all frequencies. But at frequencies below about 1500 hz it is less effective. So lets say a 3.5 db difference at 2 khz sounds like 45 degrees off center, but only 30 degrees off center at 500 hz. It just so happens, that if you let some cross bleed over occur with more at rising frequencies you can move the 2 khz sound to have less than a 3.5 db difference and if done right sound like it too is 30 degrees of center. Giving a sharper apparent image with less channel separation. An accident of sorts that is fortuitous.

Now what actually works for imaging at lower frequencies is time delay. You can have equal levels in both channels and an interchannel time delay will solidly image off center. But compensating with level via cross-talk that is frequency dependent is an easier fix than figuring out how to implement frequency dependent time delay.
 

jkeny

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John, you misquoted me. I bolded what I said and it is very specific to this thread. Thanks. And per Dallas lets not go down the digital analog debate here.

There is more than crosstalk going on here, but that's it for me this thread.
Yes, I see now - sorry & yes, let's not go down that route
 

microstrip

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Thanks for posting this, Michael.

I had been curious about this phenomenon because one album stuck out like a sore thumb - Friday Night in San Francisco. Universally regarded as a fabulous album. However, when I got the SACD ripped, and played through a music server, it was unconvincing and sounded pretty bad. The guitars were left channel/right channel with almost no bleed. May be it's the crosstalk on vinyl playback that makes it sound great.

The only way of having a definitive answer would be listening to the mastertapes. From what I have read and listened to, master tapes are closer top vinyl than redbook iconcerning listener envelopment and spaciousness.
 

jkeny

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Feb 9, 2012
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I think he is onto something, but maybe isn't quite all the way there.

If you do pan pot stereo, locating things with ILD (interchannel level difference) that works at all frequencies. But at frequencies below about 1500 hz it is less effective. So lets say a 3.5 db difference at 2 khz sounds like 45 degrees off center, but only 30 degrees off center at 500 hz. It just so happens, that if you let some cross bleed over occur with more at rising frequencies you can move the 2 khz sound to have less than a 3.5 db difference and if done right sound like it too is 30 degrees of center. Giving a sharper apparent image with less channel separation. An accident of sorts that is fortuitous.

Now what actually works for imaging at lower frequencies is time delay. You can have equal levels in both channels and an interchannel time delay will solidly image off center. But compensating with level via cross-talk that is frequency dependent is an easier fix than figuring out how to implement frequency dependent time delay.
Agree, esldude, ILD & ITD are the two factors in source location & in the natural world both factors arrive at the ears & are used for source location. You are correct in that hearing perception gradually shifts from mostly ILD sensing to mostly ITD sensing as the frequencies fall through the mid-range into the bass. So yes, just using ILD on a recording for all frequencies may well give a less natural image that the psychoacoustic mechanism works harder to interpret. Frequency dependent crossbleed to shift the HF slightly less towards the speaker is an interesting way of appealing to this mechanism.

Another interesting mechanism but one slightly OT to this thread, is the idea of late reflections - in an acoustic space we naturally expect to hear late reflections which further help us in locating the sound source, confirming our initial perception. The Zephrin late ceiling splash speakers seem to fulfill some of this aspect to great effect. David Griesinger has some great papers on this & measured the intelligibility & envelopment of concert halls

Hey, I seem to be agreeing with many on this thread - let's hope I got this one right :)
 
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