Importance of proper speaker setup

KeithR

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One of the eye-opening things about this hobby is the amount of dollars invested in cables and tweaks, but the audiophile who has never pursued any room effects or at the very minimum, correct speaker positioning. As such, let me tell my recent story on the subject.

KeithR's old room was a Rives L1 affair in an existing space- a very large 625sf room, albeit squarish that made it suck bass. I had bass traps, ceiling clouds, diffusors, and absorption panels/bookshelves- the whole 9 yards. Speaker setup was quite easy as it was marked on the acoustic plans. I sold my condo in April and moved to Marina del Rey to get an ocean view and change of pace- the new place is a rental so I can't go all out on room treatments. Its on the 6th (top) floor of a 200 unit apartment complex. The only thing I have put up is 3 GIK Art Panels on the back wall- which just happens to be at an angle (which is good!). My room looks a bit like a trapezoid (see bad iPhone photos prior to adjustment below).

I knew my sound stage was a bit flat and midrange less detailed than my prior room- just a quick FFT from my iPad revealed a nice, lower midrange suckout that confirmed the lack of "heft" on Johnny Cash's voice. My new room is also less than half the size (17x14')! To "treat" the room, I figured it best to hire someone- and not someone who just uses REW or even a dealer's "magic ears." The person I chose uses both computers and ear. It cost less than a typical set of audiophile RCAs. It was a substantial improvement.

After coming in, listening to some tunes, then pulling out his bag of tricks including test tones, mike, and computer- he went to work. Two hours later he had the R speaker asymmetrically pulled out 5" further than the L speaker, spent a lot of time on toe-in, and had EQ'd my active bass modules (Xover, Phase, PEQ, PEQ boost, etc.). We listened for awhile, I made some comments and he went back to make some final adjustments (tuning down bass due to top floor being one). He also discovered in the process that one of my speaker's tweeters is 1-2dbs off- we ended up reversing the speakers as that part of the room had more subdued HF energy. Most people don't know what they don't know (including me!). It's not solely about measurements- but which ones are correct to use in guiding placement. He explained that frequency response isn't all she wrote and that phase and other issues are often more important. In fact, some of my FR is less flat than in could be in light of those issues. He also didn't measure 0.25 inches at a time.

Results: much wider soundstage and more 3D sound. High frequencies are considerably more natural and less strident. Midrange clarity is on an entirely different plane and bass is more integrated- texture on voices for example are experienced, not heard. On the scale of improvements, I feel it right up there with amp selection. Most importantly, I found out where the problems in my room lie and how he went around those issues. For instance, I know my room + cavity has a base resonance at 35hz. It confirmed things I was hearing such as being able to locate my active woofer down low.

There are many setup methods out there- Wilson, Cardas, etc. In my asymmetric room, it was invaluable to figure out phase and maximize coherency. But in general, too many people just flop their speakers 8' apart, 1' from the wall, toe them in a few inches, and call it a day. I highly recommend bringing in a 3rd party professional (aka, not your audiophile buddy) to adjust your speakers and maximize your room/speaker relationship.

I personally think that in 2014 the use of computers really helps, especially in bass integration. After all, its not 1978. Question for forum users is do you believe in the more analytic methods or prefer the purist voicing/ear methodology?
 

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rockitman

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I don't think you can broad brush it. Sure, there are lots of people with lots of $$$ who think buying the best yields perfect sound w/o considering room design/treatment/setup position of speakers. There are also many who have the means and treated their rooms appropriately prior to blowing their load on statement components, speakers and cables.
 
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rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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That looks great! as does your description of the process. Two quick questions: Who did you use, and did you really mean "He also didn't measure 0.25 inches at a time"? Assuming that you did, I can relate, and yes, I do think some measuring equipment and measurements are important. Toe-in (if used) almost has to be done by ear, though; only in that setting can 0.25" make a difference IME.
 

Frank750

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Jul 8, 2011
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With my current speakers, a person from Sonus Faber did the set up completely by ear. He spent about 8 hours in my room with a helper literally moving each speaker 0.25" at a time. I was amazed at his patience and his ability to pick up even the slightest nuance. My speakers also have controls in the back along with a rear facing ambience speaker which also moves. He had that to deal with as well.

Prior to that, I would set up speakers initially using the Cardas method and would then use my ear from there. I have never used any measurements when placing speakers.
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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One of the eye-opening things about this hobby is the amount of dollars invested in cables and tweaks, but the audiophile who has never pursued any room effects or at the very minimum, correct speaker positioning. As such, let me tell my recent story on the subject.

Results: much wider soundstage and more 3D sound. High frequencies are considerably more natural and less strident. Midrange clarity is on an entirely different plane and bass is more integrated- texture on voices for example are experienced, not heard. On the scale of improvements, I feel it right up there with amp selection. Most importantly, I found out where the problems in my room lie and how he went around those issues. It confirmed things I was hearing such as being able to locate my active woofer down low.

I personally think that in 2014 the use of computers really helps, especially in bass integration. After all, its not 1978. Question for forum users is do you believe in the more analytic methods or prefer the purist voicing/ear methodology?

Keith, great post and wonderful thread topic. I actually think proper speaker and listener positioning is more important than an amp upgrade. Of course an amp/speaker match is vital to great sound, but proper set up can make a system go from fair to outstanding. I believe in getting an expert with equipment and measurements. I hired Jim Smith to do his RoomPlay service to my room/system. It made all the difference and I can not recommend such a service more highly.

All dealers should be trained and equipped to do this service, but some/many aren't. Third party experts can step in, especially for those who buy used equipment without dealer support.

I think it is essential to getting the most out of a system.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I'm so familiar with one brand of speakers that we carry that I hardly ever need to measure. The others however have me reaching for the Phonic in the tool box. When you are familiar with the radiation pattern of a loudspeaker or line of loudspeakers, predictability comes along with that. Last week it took me an hour to position a pair of planar hybrids. It took me 10 minutes to position the other one.
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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Their are great treatment products but most of us do not understand the best way to use them.
.

What works best for my room is full range traps behind me w/diffuser in the middle (rear wall), corner traps off the front wall corners and diffusion on the front wall in between the speakers. Diffusion in the soundstage(front wall) added considerable perceived depth of stage than w/o. I also have 1st reflection points on the side walls nominally treated. You don't want to suck the life out of a room necessarily with over treatment. I was sold too may traps in the beginning (killed the sound) before I trusted my own ears....ymmv.
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Keith, great post and wonderful thread topic. I actually think proper speaker and listener positioning is more important than an amp upgrade. Of course an amp/speaker match is vital to great sound, but proper set up can make a system go from fair to outstanding. I believe in getting an expert with equipment and measurements. I hired Jim Smith to do his RoomPlay service to my room/system. It made all the difference and I can not recommend such a service more highly.

All dealers should be trained and equipped to do this service, but some/many aren't. Third party experts can step in, especially for those who buy used equipment without dealer support.

I think it is essential to getting the most out of a system.

An area too often neglected: where you actually sit. I am often dumbfounded by otherwise great set-up where I see the person seating at a wall. While one can come to prefer such an arrangement it is in 99% of the cases (trying to be conservative) non optimal. Speaker position is in fact dependent on the listening position. This one should be chosen as carefully as speakers's and off any boundaries.
 
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JackD201

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It happened once that a client decided to "flip" his room. He went from one short wall to the opposite one. He said he didn't like the imaging height afterwards. So, he had a barbecue and invited lots of members from the local forum. When I got there they were jostling his speakers around. I moved his sofa a foot closer. Problem solved.
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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I think both methods are equally valid, the fully measured one, and the "by ear", trial and error one. One might just take longer than the other, but if the person doing the job knows what he's doing, the results should be pretty much equal, no matter what method is employed.

In most rooms, it's easy to get a "feel" for it just by talking out loud in various locations, corners, etc. That's always a good starting point...


alexandre
 

Diapason

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Mar 26, 2014
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My listening room is the bane of my audiophile life. I wish I could find somebody affordable to come over and sort it out for me, because I've been tearing my hair out for too many years. It's an awkward size (21' x 9.5') and basically a concrete box, but it's all I've got. At this stage I feel like I'm floundering around in the dark, so a measurements-based approach has a lot of merit in my eyes.

(This is my first post here after a lot of lurking, so I should really say thanks for the all the insight and entertainmnent so far!)
 

FrantzM

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Measurements are not the opposite of "trusting your ears". Measurements help establish a baseline, a starting point. The rest is fine tuned with ears and ..more measurements. We don't seem to realize that often we become accustomed to a distortion of a set of distortions. Removing those usually is uncomfortable then we get to listen to mote information and the pleasure returns. Any person who has had their room tuned properly can attest to that. Very similar to having your Display calibrated, takes a while ultimately there is no going back.

Measure then listen, give your self some time to truly listen to the new reproduction, the change can be jolting. Our body/mind have a way to cope with what is fundamentally wrong to the point of accepting it even enjoying it. New, better takes a while to get accustomed to.
 

KeithR

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Measurements are not the opposite of "trusting your ears". Measurements help establish a baseline, a starting point. The rest is fine tuned with ears and ..more measurements. We don't seem to realize that often we become accustomed to a distortion of a set of distortions. Removing those usually is uncomfortable then we get to listen to mote information and the pleasure returns. Any person who has had their room tuned properly can attest to that. Very similar to having your Display calibrated, takes a while ultimately there is no going back.

Measure then listen, give your self some time to truly listen to the new reproduction, the change can be jolting. Our body/mind have a way to cope with what is fundamentally wrong to the point of accepting it even enjoying it. New, better takes a while to get accustomed to.

Excellent post, FrantzM. And this is exactly where I'm at currently- a baseline with incremental improvement likely in the next few months.

There are certain things like phase shift that are difficult to measure by "ear" and in normal listening environments can make larger differences than frequency response allegedly. I'd be curious to how some of the pros on this thread account for it.
 

KeithR

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That looks great! as does your description of the process. Two quick questions: Who did you use, and did you really mean "He also didn't measure 0.25 inches at a time"? Assuming that you did, I can relate, and yes, I do think some measuring equipment and measurements are important. Toe-in (if used) almost has to be done by ear, though; only in that setting can 0.25" make a difference IME.

You can PM for the reference- he's in OC.

I was surprised he didn't do the 0.25" thing at a time. I believe his setup allowed him to get closer, much quicker as asiufy alludes to. He did spend a lot of time on toe-in, and i think that's where art/ear is necessary as well.
 

KeithR

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May 7, 2010
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An area too often neglected: where you actually sit. I am often dumbfounded by otherwise great set-up where I see the person seating at a wall. While one can come to prefer such an arrangement it is in 99% of the cases (trying to be conservative) non optimal. Speaker position is in fact dependent on the listening position. This one should be chosen as carefully as speakers's and off any boundaries.

Interesting- my setup included moving the sofa back all of 1" :) So consider me guilty!
 

treitz3

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An area too often neglected: where you actually sit. I am often dumbfounded by otherwise great set-up where I see the person seating at a wall. While one can come to prefer such an arrangement it is in 99% of the cases (trying to be conservative) non optimal. Speaker position is in fact dependent on the listening position. This one should be chosen as carefully as speakers's and off any boundaries.
Agreed. One of the best sounding systems that I heard was not a uber cost type system, in fact it was far from it. Thing is, we set it up outside on the long wall of a deck with the listening position back at the railings which were below ear level overlooking a beautiful valley in the mountains. Outstanding imaging amongst other things. Words simply can not describe just how good that sounded. No walls on any side but the back wall. It offered pure and unadulterated music. Nothing more, nothing less.

I was very glad to have heard such a set up.....taught me an extremely valuable lesson firsthand. ;)

Tom
 

microstrip

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Measurements can be nice help to avoid spending time with very poor positions and give a feeling of the room, but IMHO the main of the positioning must be carried by ear, methodically done.

It is always nice to refer to "measurements" in general, but very difficult to specify which measurements and what to look exactly in them and how to act during setup. The proof is that we have different methods for setup by ear reasonably described in the net, but I have never read a decent document telling a non expert user how to exactly use measurements to setup his speakers and listening positions, just enthusiastic posts about such methodology.

And sorry, I am not patient enough to spend half a year tuning my listening and speaker position.
 

microstrip

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Agreed. One of the best sounding systems that I heard was not a uber cost type system, in fact it was far from it. Thing is, we set it up outside on the long wall of a deck with the listening position back at the railings which were below ear level overlooking a beautiful valley in the mountains. Outstanding imaging amongst other things. Words simply can not describe just how good that sounded. No walls on any side but the back wall. It offered pure and unadulterated music. Nothing more, nothing less.

I was very glad to have heard such a set up.....taught me an extremely valuable lesson firsthand. ;)

Tom

Tom,

Can we know what was this lesson?
 

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