Conclusive "Proof" that higher resolution audio sounds different

Orb

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Arguing about BS116 not being a "standard" but same posters yet holding JJ as a definitive standard is amusing... why?
Because I think you will find JJ was involved or at least contributed to BS1116 :)
Yes I appreciate the framework is massive and he would had been involved in a specific subset, but still amusing IMO to say BS1116 does not count because it is a "recommendation", even though it is used by many research labs, companies, all telecom research involving subjective quality/perception,universities,etc, and many AES papers (that ignores many other peer orgs papers it has appeared in)

Cheers
Orb
 

jkeny

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Arguing about BS116 not being a "standard" but same posters yet holding JJ as a definitive standard is amusing... why?
Because I think you will find JJ was involved or at least contributed to BS1116 :)
Yes I appreciate the framework is massive and he would had been involved in a specific subset, but still amusing IMO to say BS1116 does not count because it is a "recommendation", even though it is used by many research labs, companies, all telecom research involving subjective quality/perception,universities,etc, and many AES papers (that ignores many other peer orgs papers it has appeared in)

Cheers
Orb

Yes, this display of cognitive dissonance is very interesting & somewhat amusing.
On one hand, we have JJ's list & ArnyK's lst (& I'm sure many others have summarised BS1116 into a shorter list) - all based on a summary of the BS1116 & in all cases are the requirements for a sensitive & reliable test

On the other hand we have people (including ArnyK) now saying that they are only recommendations although his list is headed "Ten (10) Requirements For Sensitive and Reliable Listening Tests" JJ similarly doesn't say these criteria are recommendations - they are necessary if one wishes to conduct a reliable & sensitive test.
This playing around with words & concepts is both amusing & interesting but highly divisive.

What's to be taken from this - the criteria are optional & we can allow insensitivity & unreliability in these tests?
Where does that leave the results? Ah, I know, back to the multitude of null results that we have seen in the past.
So this is the call, is it?
And when a rare positive result occurs, the validity of that result will be questioned because appropriate controls were not used - hilarious!

That's a nicely arranged setup for delivering null results, for sure!
Is this is what you gave us ArnyK "far more impressive innovation of mine at the time was the inventioin of listening test with a negative outcome. ;-)"

Yes, Arny, impressive too just how far you (& others) will go to ensure these negative results remain the status quo.

PS Whatever the outcome from these positive test results - this analysis ot the test & it's procedures is the most interesting part as it reveals the views & beliefs of the people involved.
 
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arnyk

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Yes, this display of cognitive dissonance is very interesting & somewhat amusing.
On one hand, we have JJ's list & ArnyK's lst (& I'm sure many others have summarised BS1116 into a shorter list) - all based on a summary of the BS1116 & in all cases are the requirements for a sensitive & reliable test

Apparently some are unfamiliar with standards documents. They are typically quite explicit. If pollutants are supposed to be below so many ppm, then that is spelled out.

In contrast, JJ's guidlines, my requirements, and even BS1116 are generally pretty vague.

On the other hand we have people (including ArnyK) now saying that they are only recommendations although his list is headed "Ten (10) Requirements For Sensitive and Reliable Listening Tests" JJ similarly doesn't say these criteria are recommendations - they are necessary if one wishes to conduct a reliable & sensitive test.

They are required in a general sort of way. But they are not generally explicit, quantified standards.

This playing around with words & concepts is both amusing & interesting but highly divisive.

If you wish to indict people who play around with the words that people write in good faith and turn this into a game, please be my guest!

BTW, where are your Foobar2000 test logs?

What's to be taken from this - the criteria are optional & we can allow insensitivity & unreliability in these tests?

Here's something to mull over - what are the standards for sensitivity and reliability in these tests? It seems illogical to complain about insensitivity and unreliability if you can't tell sensitivity and reliability even if they smack you in the face, right?

Where does that leave the results? Ah, I know, back to the multitude of null results that we have seen in the past.

False claim. There are plenty of positive results from DBTs. However it is paramount that the thing being listened for is audible.

For example, a knowledgeable person looks at the test results from a power amp or a DAC and says to himself: "Based on everything we know about psychoacoustics, no way is anybody going to detect this thing." Everthing is way below JNDs.

Someone then does a DBT and they get yet another null result. Whose fault is that?
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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Arguing about BS116 not being a "standard" but same posters yet holding JJ as a definitive standard is amusing... why?
Because I think you will find JJ was involved or at least contributed to BS1116 :)
Yes I appreciate the framework is massive and he would had been involved in a specific subset, but still amusing IMO to say BS1116 does not count because it is a "recommendation", even though it is used by many research labs, companies, all telecom research involving subjective quality/perception,universities,etc, and many AES papers (that ignores many other peer orgs papers it has appeared in)

Cheers
Orb

I can't speak for anyone else, orb, but I'm not saying BS1116, or JJ's recommendations, for that matter, don't count. I'm saying their existence doesn't invalidate the results of all tests that don't use them. And I'd add that those who've held that position must not have looked very closely at the unfortunately named BS1116. Did they actually read sections 7, on playback system requirements? it requires professional studio monitors, then goes on to specify measurements!. The audiophile horror!

No, BS1116 would never be accepted by the audiophile community, not even here,in one of the most reality-based audiophile forums on the net. And I'm not inclined to search for the list of controls in JJ's requirements that has been posted here, but it has similar game-stoppers for the audiophile audience.

If only audiophiles were able to agree on standards for measuring and testing audio! Sadly, this thread only demonstrates that some of them are able to rationalize anything, even using "standards" they would never accept themselves, to dismiss results they do not want to believe in.

And that's where the real BS has been in this thread, all along.

Tim
 

Orb

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Tim,
it is not just about "audiophiles" not accepting or capable of implementing best practice-methodology-etc as outlined by BS116 (there is a standard for test comparison framework and it references BS116 and is very similar) but also those who vocally use ABX from an objective narrative standpoint in the audio community, and tbh they are also hobbyists IMO even if Arny feels differently.
TBH it is unfair of me to point out just Arny (and Ethan), but his is probably the most well known by various audio members on diverse audio forums including AH where I was a member for years.
And this does also apply to some papers published as pointed out by Amir, where they are tbh more like hobbyists in their approach rather than thorough engineer-scientific framework and methodology.

Thanks
Orb
 
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Mike Lavigne

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1006 posts in 40 days......about blind testing.....and still going strong.

if I ever get tempted to become an objectivist I know how to get over that really quick.
 

amirm

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Regarding BS1116 -- A) it's a recommendation (for subjective evaluation, by the way), not a standard. B) has anyone ever taken this recommendation? Ever? Who? In testing what? It's a nice, pretty comprehensive set of guidelines, but you'd never get audiophiles to agree on the basics -- appropriate source material and playback system.
Let me start by giving the easy answer by quoting ITU on what a recommendation is: http://www.itu.int/pub/R-REC

The ITU-R Recommendations constitute a set of international technical standards developed by the Radiocommunication Sector (formerly CCIR) of the ITU. They are the result of studies undertaken by Radiocommunication Study Groups on:


So as you see they are "standards." Why are they called recommendations then? We get some insight from this paragraph at the end of that page:

The ITU-R Recommendations are approved by ITU Member States. Their implementation is not mandatory; however, as they are developed by experts from administrations, operators, the industry and other organizations dealing with radiocommunication matters from all over the world, they enjoy a high reputation and are implemented worldwide.

So here is the longer answer. ITU stands for International Telecommunication Union. Note the word "Telecommunication." Its job initially was to set standards that allowed interoperability between private telecommunication companies (e.g. as existed in US) and public companies (as existed in many countries encompassing much of Europe). To assure compatibility and safety of such links, ITU "standards" are literally converted to "laws" meaning breaking them can be serious offense.

Of course the world has moved on and so has ITU. We no longer have some of the issues in its original charter. No one gets electrocuted for example if a listening test is done without following all the components of BS1116.

Let's look at a better example. Anytime you turn on your HDTV, the picture you see is governed by another "Recommendation" from ITU called BT709. The "t" stands for Television by the way and "S" in BS1116 stands for "sound." The context of both is for broadcasting. But this being a recommendation, it is not mandatory and indeed some DVD players violated it. Recall when DVD players started to have "upsampling" where they would take the DVD and output high definition video? The DVD like broadcasting of non-HD content was governed by another ITU standard called BT601. BT601 must not be used with HDTV as it has somewhat different color than BT709. Not realizing this, some manufacturers output HDTV but kept the color format BT601. The TV however, would switch to BT709 anytime it received HD signal and as a result, display incorrect colors. The right solution was to not only upsample the pixels but also perform the color conversion to BT709.

So while ITU recommendations are followed to a letter in many instances, it not being the law means that at the extreme, you have no obligation to follow them as such. But try to sell any broadcaster equipment for HDTV that doesn't comply with ITU-RBT709 and even the receptionist at the front door of a major network would know to throw you out of the building :). "Optional" does not have the lay meaning that we assume here.

It is being held up here as a standard, without which any result can be dismissed. Where has it been used?

Tim
I didn't hold it up as a "standard" but rather, best practices. Please go back and read my posts where I use this term and BS1116 interchangeably. Normally I would not even reference BS1116. But this group constantly wants validation so I am doing that to show these are not my ideas.

I already quoted one paper that used ITU-R BS1116 in test of DVD-A against SACD. Here is a number of others which you can also find yourself by searching the AES web site:

P20-1 Selection of Audio Stimuli for Listening Tests—Jonas Ekeroot, Jan Berg, Arne Nykänen, Luleå University of Technology - Luleå, Sweden
Two listening test methods in common use for the subjective assessment of audio quality are the ITU-R recommendations BS.1116-1 for small impairments and BS.1534-1 (MUSHRA) for intermediate quality. They stipulate the usage of only critical audio stimuli (BS.1116-1) to reveal differences among systems under test, or critical audio stimuli that represents typical audio material in a specific application context (MUSHRA). A poor selection of stimuli can cause experimental insensitivity and introduce bias, leading to inconclusive results. At the same time this selection process is time-consuming and labor-intensive, and is difficult to conduct in a systematic way. This paper reviews and discusses the selection of audio stimuli in listening test-related studies.
Convention Paper 8445 (Purchase now)

7-1 Subjective Evaluation of Large and Small Impairments in Audio Codecs
Gilbert A. Soulodre, Michel Lavoie, Advanced Sound Systems Group Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Ont., Canada (Invited)

A significant amount of research has been conducted in the development of a test methodology for evaluating small impairments in audio codecs. Specifically, ITU-R Recommendation BS.1116 provides a full description of the accepted methodology which has been used extensively in the development and evaluation of high quality audio codecs. This methodology has proven effective at generating consistent results in subjective tests and can provide a high degree of resolution in discriminating between codecs. With the recent trend towards very low bitrate audio codecs and the corresponding lower quality, a need has arisen for a subjective test methodology which will allow the performance of these codecs to be evaluated and compared in a rigorous fashion. The method described in BS.1116 is not entirely appropriate for this purpose and so a new method has been developed for evaluating audio codecs with larger impairments. The new method strives to maintain those aspects of BS.1116 which have proven most effective, while extending it to address the particular difficulties encountered when evaluating large impairments. This paper describes the methodologies for evaluating small and large impairments, and includes results from formal subjective tests.

Evaluation of the ITU-R Objective Audio Quality Measurement Method
William C. Treurniet and Gilbert A. Soulodre 164

The subject of this study was the assessment of the PEAQ (perceptual evaluation of audio quality) method's ability to predict and correlate the results of subjective tests conducted according to ITU-R BS-1116. An additional goal was to determine PEAQ's ability to correctly rank the performance quality of various codecs. The PEAQ system was also evaluated as an aid to selecting appropriate audio listening materials for use in subjective listening tests.


P10-7 Evaluation of HE-AAC, AC-3, and E-AC-3 Codecs—Leslie Gaston, Richard Sanders, University of Colorado at Denver and Health Sciences Center - Denver, CO, USA
The Recording Arts Program at the University of Colorado at Denver and Health Sciences Center (UCDHSC) performed an independent evaluation of three audio codecs: Dolby Digital (AC-3 at 384 kbps), Advanced Audio Coding Plus (HE-AAC at 160 kbps), and Dolby Digital Plus (E-AC-3 at 224 and 200 kbps). UCDHSC performed double-blind listening tests during the summer of 2006, which adhered to the standards of ITU-R BS.1116 (that provides guidelines for multichannel critical listening tests). The results of this test illustrate a clear delineation between the AC-3 codec and the others tested. We will present the test procedures and findings in this paper.


There are many more. But perhaps more familiar to this audience is our own Dr. Sean Olive and Dr. Floyd Toole with this paper: A New Laboratory for Evaluating Multichannel Audio Components and Systems, Authors: Olive, Sean E.; Castro, Brian; Toole, Floyd E.

The current standards that recommend listening room performance include: ... ITU-R Recommendation BS. 1116: Methods for Subjective Evaluation of Small Impairments in audio systems including multichannel sound systems, 2.d Edition (1997) [12]

As you see, in the industry/research world BS1116 is extremely well known and utilized. Can you deviate from it? Sure. But you better have a good reason. In my case I used headphones and not a room with reverb time, etc. as they recommend. This however is an accepted deviation. Throwing out such things as critical audio test segments, controls, pre-screening and such is simply not done in properly done tests even if it is not referencing BS1116. We know from experience that it is hugely simple to get negative results by creating less sensitive tests, and inclusion of many people with non-critical listening abilities.

I will stop here as I suspect you did not remotely expect an essay for your simple question :).
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim,
it is not just about "audiophiles" not accepting or capable of implementing best practice-methodology-etc as outlined by BS116 (there is a standard for test comparison framework and it references BS116 and is very similar) but also those who vocally use ABX from an objective narrative standpoint in the audio community, and tbh they are also hobbyists IMO even if Arny feels differently.
TBH it is unfair of me to point out just Arny (and Ethan), but his is probably the most well known by various audio members on diverse audio forums including AH where I was a member for years.
And this does also apply to some papers published as pointed out by Amir, where they are tbh more like hobbyists in their approach rather than thorough engineer-scientific framework and methodology.

Thanks
Orb

This thread has circled and twisted and is, at this point, about many things, Orb. FWIW, I don't personally hold that casual blind listening tests of any combination of letters are a standard that must be met, or that they prove anything. My position hasn't moved in this thread. I still believe that imperfect blind listening, with a few basic controls, is better than sighted listening of any sort. And I still hold that demanding the use of a complex set of recommendations that audiophiles themselves would never agree to, and insisting that without such controls all tests from casual listening to well-controlled studies are equally invalid, is a ridiculous position. Honestly, I don't think it even is a position; I think it's a rationalization.

Tim
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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Amir -- I know you didn't hold up BS1116 as a standard, and I understand that you have not held that any test that does not follow BS1116, or JJ's controls, is no better than sighted listening. It is John who has doggedly pursued that argument, with some support from Orb and micro, I believe. I don't think anyone else has joined them at that extreme, but I've come in and out of this thread. I easily could have missed it.

Tim
 

amirm

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Ah, nothing like a voice of reason! Yup, BS1116 is a recommendation not a standard, no matter how some people want to use like it was a standard by means all non-complying tests can be discarded.
Well, that list seems to include you. Here is your web site which for many years quoted BS1116:

This web site [Arny's PCABX.com] encourages conformance with applicable international technical standards organizations publications including ITU Recommendation BS 1116-1. You can find out more about this document at http://www.itu.int/itudoc/itu-r/rec/bs/1116-1.html . The approximate cost of this 26 page document in MS Word or PDF format is $12.00 US as of 10/1/2000.

So you encouraged conformance. Use the word "technical standards organization" and now it is some "vague" document that can easily be ignored 7 years later when Meyer and Moran tested high res audio?

Furthermore, if BS1116 were applied to all of the ABX tests being discussed in this thread as a standard, they would all have to be dismissed because BS1116 specifies ABC/hr as the DBT testing methodology, not ABX.
Funny there that in a web site called PCABX you promoted conformance with BS1116.

And it is not just 14 years ago that you did, here is much more recent comments on the same:

Secondly, there is a widely-recognized international standard for audio evaluation known as ITU recommendation BS 1116-1 which represents later science and art than those few earlier papers favor. It basically mandates 100 dB dynamic range which is of course far less demanding and more realistic than 120 dB.

So it is not a standard now but was in that conversation in January 2013. Here is you again on AVS:

The industry standard for determining audibility is a time synched, level matched, double blind listening test. There are several recommended variations on this, but BS1116 is quite complete specifying the listening environment and listener training.

And:

This response and what follows it is so non-responsive to the post it quotes that it only proves once again that trying to converse with Amir about *anything* is a very tough row to hoe.

The post he cites is almost totally irrelevant to any discussion about subjective testing.

BTW, if you want to know a lot of what I think about subjective testing, try reading EBU/ITU Recommendation BS 1116.

And:
We live in a wonderful time where every mainstream mid-priced or better AVR has a bank of six or more DACs with all measurable flaws 100 dB or more down. According to EBU recommendation BS 1116-1 that's basically sonically flawless and suitable for lab evaluations of other audio technology.

Above the BS1116 is the cure for cancer in how it says our AVRs are sonically flawless.

There are documents from international standards organizations such as ITU BS 1116 that detail the requirements for a critical listening environment that have far less dynamic range.

I will stop after this one:

Don't take this personally, because your situation is so common that level-matched, time-synched, double blind tests are the standard means that is used people who develop perceptual coders (MP3, AAC, etc.) and other such software.

Here's proof:

http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreview/trev_283-kozamernik.pdf

"3. Audio quality assessments"

"In order to assess the quality of an audio signal under controlled and repeatable conditions, subjective listening tests using a number of qualified listeners and a selection of
audio sequences are still recognized as being the most reliable way of quality assessment. ITU-R Recommendation BS.1116-1 [3] is used for the evaluation of high-quality
digital audio codecs, exhibiting small impairments of the signal"

You can find out more about EBU recommendation BS 1116-1 here:

http://www.itu.int/dms_pubrec/itu-r/rec/bs/R-REC-BS.1116-1-199710-I!!PDF-E.pdf

"4 Test method
To conduct subjective assessments in the case of systems generating small impairments, it is necessary to select an
appropriate method. The “double-blind triple-stimulus with hidden reference” method has been found to be especially
sensitive, stable and to permit accurate detection of small impairments. Therefore, it should be used for this kind of test"

There is your proof of what I just said abouit DBTs being the standard method for avoiding bias in listening tests.

As I say, as "objectivists" sometimes we are corrupt to the core. We sing the praises of BS1116 in countless posts when it suits our purpose but all of a sudden when the tables are turned on us, we get to put down BS1116 and defend tests that don't remotely comply with our own stated points such as above.
 

amirm

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Where was that thinking when you were pushing the results of your sighted evaluations, Amir?
What are you talking about Arny? Wait, don't answer. Let's ask others:

Guys, since the inception of WBF, have any of you seen me "pushing results of sighted evaluations?"
 

arnyk

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What are you talking about Arny? Wait, don't answer. Let's ask others:

Guys, since the inception of WBF, have any of you seen me "pushing results of sighted evaluations?"

Attempt to distract noted. Posts in question were made at AVS.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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What are you talking about Arny? Wait, don't answer. Let's ask others:

Guys, since the inception of WBF, have any of you seen me "pushing results of sighted evaluations?"

Nope.

Tim
 

jkeny

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Amir -- I know you didn't hold up BS1116 as a standard, and I understand that you have not held that any test that does not follow BS1116, or JJ's controls, is no better than sighted listening. It is John who has doggedly pursued that argument, with some support from Orb and micro, I believe. I don't think anyone else has joined them at that extreme, but I've come in and out of this thread. I easily could have missed it.

Tim
Tim, I have constantly said that the usual forum based blind tests are no better than sighted tests, hold no more credence & should be treated as anecdotes, just like objectivists always have with sighted tests. The reason I gave for this was that very little attempt was made to control all the biases that can influence the results. The emphasis has always been to address the sightedness bias (& some attempt at level matching) - no other awareness shown of other factors that might have an influence. This led to me being quizzed over what other factors/biases were of importance & I posted JJs list while stating that they were a summary of the BS1116 standard for such testing. Both JJ's list & BS1116 came as some surprise to some here & a process of denial ensued by the same people.

I (& others, including JJ) have consistently suggested to at least introduce positive & negative controls in such blind tests as a very significant way of ensuring that any blind test was capable of being sensitive enough & reliable enough to qualify as a valid test (something that I have never seen in any forum reports of blind testing). I have said that this is the equivalent of ensuring your equipment is capable & calibrated before doing measurements. This was ignored & instead the focus was shifted/deflected to the phrase "valid tests" & to the validity of sighted tests. In the ensuing 50 pages of posts (or so) this deflection was what was became the focus. So, yes, I am to blame for allowing myself to be deflected from my main point which is to at least introduce pos & neg controls in any such tests if people want the results from such tests to have a more reliable value than sighted tests. I still fail to see how people can argue this point?

Now we reach a stage in the thread where some awareness is dawning on these same people that, yes there is a set of standards which should be used to inform any such tests. This, in itself, is a positive outcome, to my thinking.

Could we now stop this trench warfare & get down to actually trying to design better testing methodologies? I suggested some controls that could possibly have "improved" Arny's test & other similar tests, hoping that these might be a way forward & act as a seed for further consideration. But this post was also ignored.

Failure to address this will just result in reverting to the status quo position with 100 page threads getting nowhere, as usual.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim, I have constantly said that the usual forum based blind tests are no better than sighted tests, hold no more credence & should be treated as anecdotes, just like objectivists always have with sighted tests.

Well, no, John. I don't know how constantly you've held any firm position, but at one point in this thread you and micro were, without ambiguity, saying that any listening test that didn't conform to all of JJ's controls was no better than casual sighted listening. I'm sure anyone who has been strong enough to hang through this whole ordeal (I was not. I dropped out for quite a few pages to take a well-needed rest), remembers that.

Now, can you see the difference between conforming to all of JJ's controls and "the usual forum based blind tests?" It's a huge difference. Night and day. I think you probably can see it without any controls at all.

Tim
 

amirm

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Attempt to distract noted. Posts in question were made at AVS.
This is the reason I didn't ask you Arny. You do not give consistent answers. In this thread we are discussing results of double blind tests and you keep asking about sighted tests. That is "attempt to distract." That was not bothersome to you but me asking the entire community if they know me to be doing what you are saying is a distraction?
 

microstrip

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Well, no, John. I don't know how constantly you've held any firm position, but at one point in this thread you and micro were, without ambiguity, saying that any listening test that didn't conform to all of JJ's controls was no better than casual sighted listening. I'm sure anyone who has been strong enough to hang through this whole ordeal (I was not. I dropped out for quite a few pages to take a well-needed rest), remembers that.

Now, can you see the difference between conforming to all of JJ's controls and "the usual forum based blind tests?" It's a huge difference. Night and day. I think you probably can see it without any controls at all.

Tim

Tim,

For your information I never referred to JJ controls in any of my posts. I referred to positive control tests, something very different. I pointed to you and others the ITU recommendation, you decided to ignore it.
Please go one exposing your lack of knowledge about this subject, but please do not tell I said something I never said.
 

microstrip

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(...) As I say, as "objectivists" sometimes we are corrupt to the core. We sing the praises of BS1116 in countless posts when it suits our purpose but all of a sudden when the tables are turned on us, we get to put down BS1116 and defend tests that don't remotely comply with our own stated points such as above.

Nice to read it from you Amir. I have been telling it since long, asking for a report of a test of audiophile equipment complying with this recommendation.
 

jkeny

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Well, no, John. I don't know how constantly you've held any firm position, but at one point in this thread you and micro were, without ambiguity, saying that any listening test that didn't conform to all of JJ's controls was no better than casual sighted listening. I'm sure anyone who has been strong enough to hang through this whole ordeal (I was not. I dropped out for quite a few pages to take a well-needed rest), remembers that.

Now, can you see the difference between conforming to all of JJ's controls and "the usual forum based blind tests?" It's a huge difference. Night and day. I think you probably can see it without any controls at all.

Tim

.... My position hasn't moved in this thread. I still believe that imperfect blind listening, with a few basic controls, is better than sighted listening of any sort. .......
Tim

Tim, you don't seem to want to let it go, do you?

Your bolded statement/belief above is the kernel of the issue.

You have been told often enough that there are many other biases that have an influence on the results. Once you take out the sighted/knowledge bias there are still many biases operating (which test design is meant to cater for), all of which affect the result. It's the result we are interested in & how reliable it is.

If you just want to say that removing some biases appears to be more useful than removing no biases but it gets us nowhere as far as trusting the result, then yes, I can agree with you. But it is the reliability of the result that we are ultimately interested in, no?

I suggested positive & negative controls as a means of short-circuiting/bypassing this lack of attention to other possible biases in operation in a blind test. Do you object to this? If not, then we are in agreement & can move on, OK?
 

amirm

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Guys, let's tone down the personal aspects of the post. Yes, I feel bad about what I told Arny too :). Let's share more technical points that have not been covered.
 

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