System Builders vs. Audiophile "Chefs". Are they one of the same?

caesar · Jul 8, 2014

The elites and intellectuals in this industry have set ideals for great sound in this hobby. HP famously has come up with the Absolute Sound. Valin has come up with "transparency to source" standard. Of course, unless either guy is the "decider", there will never be agreement on what is the "absolute sound" or what is more "true to source".

Regular guys in this hobby, many of whom are experienced, pride themselves on being great "system builders". Sometimes their systems sound great, but other times you walk out shaking your head... But is there really such a thing as a system builder? Is there an idea of a "concept of a system", or do these guys just get lucky occasionally, based on their room, the music they play that you happen to enjoy, etc.? How many different concepts of a system have you come across?

And of course, we also know guys who are constantly buying, selling, and swapping gear. They visit audiogon and various audio sites, and some guy is gushing about the latest cool piece of gear they got. They throw in this speaker, that tube preamp, that SS amp, and some funky looking cables to "cook up" a sound... Yet when they get used to the sound of a piece of gear, the thrill is gone. Some combinations are more interesting than others. But always on to the next....This gear churning is a lot of fun, and psychology studies confirm this, but a lot of time these guys are very frustrated.

My impression is that this hobby is an ultimate individual pursuit. No two rooms are the same. Very, very, very rarely 2 systems are the same. All tastes, reinforced by experience, differ, and most people do not trust the engineers who swear they are giving us the most pure sound.

What do you guys think?

RogerD · Jul 8, 2014

I for one have collected my system since 1977. My thought if it sounded good back then,why shouldn't it sound good today. I have voiced all my preamps with low noise and distortion components. I have redone one amplifier out of five I use , the rest sound fine. I have also updated my main speakers. So I am a system builder and a chef,Heinz 57 maybe,but my food is not bland that's for sure.

dingus · Jul 8, 2014

caesar said:
...and most people do not trust the engineers who swear they are giving us the most pure sound.

What do you guys think?

i was with you up to this point, but thats not to say you are not correct only that i dont have a mistrust of sound engineers.

RogerD · Jul 8, 2014

dingus said:
i was with you up to this point, but thats not to say you are not correct only that i dont have a mistrust of sound engineers.

Don't trust the engineers? I think most must like their equipment,they vote with their pocket book. Listeners become better listeners over time and educate themselves. Others like to buy a new car every year or audio system.

dallasjustice · Jul 8, 2014

caesar; said:
most people do not trust the engineers who swear they are giving us the most pure sound.

What do you guys think?

This is the biggest problem in this hobby. I like to make fun of be magazine guys but be truth is they don't matter that much. Too often manufacturers are given supergod status. I have fallen into this trap as well. Manufacturers many times arrogate themselves expertise for topics in which they have zero knowledge. They often believe the "system" is contained inside of the small boxes they make and sell that illusion to their customers. Hopefully folks will figure out that the system is actually inside of a much larger box and the only judge is the listener.

microstrip · Jul 8, 2014

caesar said:
(...)

My impression is that this hobby is an ultimate individual pursuit. No two rooms are the same. Very, very, very rarely 2 systems are the same. All tastes, reinforced by experience, differ, and most people do not trust the engineers who swear they are giving us the most pure sound.

What do you guys think?

F. Toole once wrote that stereo reproduction is an individual experience, naturally this booby is most of the time an individual pursuit. Engineers can help a lot, but the ultimate judge are our ears, including our interpretation of the air vibrations produced by our systems.

Most audiophiles are happy people, really enjoying their hobby in all its aspects - music, system evolution and socialization. Unfortunately some people prefer to focus on the few frustrated audiophiles and spend their time on them. I always suggest that people should look at the Virtual Systems at Audiogon - many hundreds, perhaps thousands of systems of people who happily talk about them with other members.

TBone · Jul 8, 2014

Is there an idea of a "concept of a system", or do these guys just get lucky occasionally, based on their room, the music they play that you happen to enjoy, etc.?

I've been lucky, but luck often follows intent ...

Not certain what you mean by "concept of a system", but if it's motive is trying to achieve a synergistic refined system which sounds superior to the sum of it's parts (via reputations) ... I'm ALL in ...

MylesBAstor · Jul 8, 2014

dallasjustice said:
This is the biggest problem in this hobby. I like to make fun of be magazine guys but be truth is they don't matter that much. Too often manufacturers are given supergod status. I have fallen into this trap as well. Manufacturers many times arrogate themselves expertise for topics in which they have zero knowledge. They often believe the "system" is contained inside of the small boxes they make and sell that illusion to their customers. Hopefully folks will figure out that the system is actually inside of a much larger box and the only judge is the listener.

And how do you determine who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't?

Mosin · Jul 8, 2014

I like the term "Audiophile Chefs" because if I know anything at all it is that audio is comprised of many flavors, and whether the flavor is tasty depends entirely on who you ask. I suppose all of us have left a room at some point shaking our heads, yet someone almost always likes that very same room. Go to any audio show.

I'm no chef, but as a manufacturer I have l learned that to present well enough at a show to be noticed, I have to dream up a flavor that somehow manages to get attention without offending the ears of too many people. Often, a simple tube change can dramatically affect the result, as to who likes the room, or doesn't. I realize that you can't please everyone, so I try to aim for those who don't like what I'm doing on next go around. The hope is that sooner or later everyone thinks I have something of merit. A good short order cook (which is what most guys who do shows have to be) has to be able to adjust the trimmings on-the-fly to get the most bang for his buck. My greatest fear is not that I might have a room at a show that absolutely sucks, but that I might have one that goes completely unnoticed. That happens to a lot of guys who have a lot riding on the outcome, and I prefer not to join that club!

Putting together that next room that presents the product in a new light is always a challenge. It is pretty daunting and scary, too. At home, a completely different system with a completely different sound is usually the case. I guess that is where systems are really built.

Occam · Jul 8, 2014

MylesBAstor said:
And how do you determine who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't?

At minimum, their system should be able to accurately reproduce the sound of a tambourine. Not all that many system do so. One might have a different instrument as their fave for testing, but good quality tambourines are reasonably inexpensive.
Yes, I know that such tests are constrained by the quality and expertise of the recording.... YMMV

As to reviewers, I can't judge their perceptions until I read a review of something I've also heard and evaluated. Unless I can normalize their perceptions against my own, their subjective views have no context.

As to views, advice and explanations, I'm constantly struck by how much of what I read that seems quite plausible, is so utterly wrong. I often admire someone's writing while thinking them an absolute dunce.

FWIW,
Paul

rockitman · Jul 8, 2014

tomelex said:
I would also say that if the next day, you presented these guys with the same tracks to mix and master, it would sound different enough from the one they did before to really show just how abstract all this stuff is (the recording) that folks argue about .....

That is what differentiates hobbyist engineers from the established pros. They have full control of the sound and I am quite sure they engineer the sound predictably and repeatably subject to the artist/recording labels specs and desires.

dingus · Jul 8, 2014

MylesBAstor said:
And how do you determine who knows what they're talking about and who doesn't?

depends on the context. in a scientific discussion its pretty easy to validate or invalidate an opinion. for an evaluator, i feel its largely experience and how well the evaluator is using that experience to make their evaluation. for the "magazine guys," (no slight intend, i just like the term) it also helps to be a good writer. i've not written any reviews, but i have a lot of respect for those who do, even Fremer who is too obnoxious for my liking. all of those people are putting their asses out on a limb with every piece and almost always have to take a load of crap from one side or the other because of it. that takes a lot more than just dedication to hobby.

for engineers, i wouldnt have the slightest idea...

Robh3606 · Jul 8, 2014

But is there really such a thing as a system builder? Is there an idea of a "concept of a system", or do these guys just get lucky occasionally, based on their room, the music they play that you happen to enjoy, etc.? How many different concepts of a system have you come across?

Hello Caesar

The question is what is a concept system?? If you look at it from the point of view that you start with an idea and clean sheet of paper I for one have done just that. I am sure I am not alone and many dealers do the same thing putting together packages for their clients.

The systems I did that with was my HT set-up and main stereo. I started with raw drivers for my L/R/C and subs went from there. I built the L/R/C and subs and designed the basic system around them as far as power requirements, EQ, and source components. With the main stereo I built the system around the speakers again I started with the raw drivers.

most people do not trust the engineers who swear they are giving us the most pure sound.

I find that very odd as our hobby couldn't exist with out them.

As far as audio chef's. Even with a well thought out "concept system" you won't know the potential of what you "designed" until you get it all playing. Lets face it we all season to taste.

A little of both I would think not one or the other.

Rob

Mike Lavigne · Jul 8, 2014

I think as one goes down the audiophile road and acquires a library of recordings and listens to them on various systems, it's not that hard to establish a viewpoint on how you think reproduced music ought to sound, and plenty of references for that sound. then you find a formula of gear that seems to take you closest to the sound you want.....and a target environment to place it in. in total, a system which is somewhere on the road you yourself chose.

depending on the degree of clarity and conviction you might have on this reference, you do move toward a coherent system which takes you to that performance place you seek.

some are maybe less sure about where they are going, and so are likely to jump around in various directions for who knows how many different reasons. or maybe follow another's direction who they have confidence in.

others who have a confident direction might hear something a bit different from their current path and get pulled somewhere else. and still others become so defensive about their choice of paths they stop being open to what they hear.

all these different approaches are valid; the hobby is what you want it to be for yourself. if you are enjoying the music, or the gear, or maybe even the conflict or the process of changing gear.....then good for you. if it causes you stress or sadness then that is a problem to worry about.

who is to say who is a system builder and who is a flavor master? it depends on your perspective.

as far as the engineers who record and mix the recordings we hear, hopefully we have enough recordings that we can decide for ourselves what is truth to us.

as far as my own system building philosophy, it is pretty simple. I want my system/room/gear to get out of the way of the music and not attach it's own sound to the recording. i look for neutral pieces to the system that need the least amount of balancing by other pieces. i want gear that stands on it's own as neutral and natural. I'm sure I'm not alone in that target agenda for my system.

i have my opinion on how I'm doing on my desires but no facts. it's a subjective thing. i am subjectively happy and satisfied with where I'm at.

mauidan · Jul 8, 2014

Mike Lavigne said:
as far as the engineers who record and mix the recordings we hear, hopefully we have enough recordings that we can decide for ourselves what is truth to us.

Alexandria XLF's in the Sage Recording Studio in Arlington, Washington

GaryProtein · Jul 8, 2014

tomelex said:
I would also say that if the next day, you presented these guys with the same tracks to mix and master, it would sound different enough from the one they did before to really show just how abstract all this stuff is (the recording) that folks argue about .....

rockitman said:
That is what differentiates hobbyist engineers from the established pros. They have full control of the sound and I am quite sure they engineer the sound predictably and repeatably subject to the artist/recording labels specs and desires.

I think the truth lies between the two.

The auditory system in our heads is plastic and affected by many things in our daily experience. The "pros" are no different. The same tracks mixed on different days will definitely sound different. Whether one will be good and another bad is another question, but they will be different.

I do believe most engineers know a lot less than they are given credit for. If that were not the case, recordings would sound more similar than different from each other.

RogerD · Jul 8, 2014

Steve Hoffman said when he thought the digital CD sounded the same as the master tape he used for the transfer he destroyed the lacquer. I never gave that much credence until I improved my system to the point of being satisfied. So I'll add that a system builder alone I think is at a disadvantage if you don't know what to listen for. Experience and experimentation is the key and the key lies in the details,you need to be a chef....a doer and not a buyer alone.

caesar · Jul 8, 2014

dallasjustice said:
This is the biggest problem in this hobby. I like to make fun of be magazine guys but be truth is they don't matter that much. Too often manufacturers are given supergod status. I have fallen into this trap as well. Manufacturers many times arrogate themselves expertise for topics in which they have zero knowledge. They often believe the "system" is contained inside of the small boxes they make and sell that illusion to their customers. Hopefully folks will figure out that the system is actually inside of a much larger box and the only judge is the listener.

Dallas, I don't mean this in the absolute sense. Of course, all great speakers and successful audio companies are based on solid engineering and physics. Instead, I am talking about trusting the engineers in the micro sense to get their gear to sound like real music. Take a handful of the most successful and popular speaker companies - Wilson, Rockport, Magico, MBL, TAD, Focal, etc. Let's be honest: all of these companies have hired great engineers. Who is to say that the engineering compromises YG made are better or worse than what Magico's Alon Wolf and Meir Tammam made? Why do people think that a metal enclosure is better than a non-metal enclosure? David Wilson is not a stupid man. I know for a fact that he has experimented with metal, and if metal sounded better, he would have had metal speakers while Alon and Yoav were still prepubescent boys. And furthermore, what alloy of metal and what thickness of metal sounds better than another alloy or a different thickness that doesn't cause an awful ringing coloration? At a recent show, Polymer Research guys had a huge sign next to their speakers that said: "NOT ALUMINUM!". And their speakers sounded pretty damn good... And enclosures is just one small topic....

And I agree with you that marketing plays a huge role in this hobby. But where you and I probably differ is that the engineering pitch is just another marketing ploy. We all filter what we hear and what we respond to through our own biases, preferences, experiences. People yearn for certain emotions. Some people respond to the engineering pitch, while others don't. It seems to me that those impressed by engineering imagine great parts and flat measurements, and as a result enjoy their system more. To many others, home made parts is not the last word of how those emotions may be achieved. Instead, they focus their imaginary yearnings and fantasies on "tonality" , re-experiencing the emotions of the musical performance, time-machine element, etc.

Personally, for a chief designer, I want a guy who has attended a lot of live shows managing work of the best engineers to properly voice the system. If you take a guy like Ries from MBL, he happens to wear both hats really well.

In the end, different brands mean different things to different people; Brands speak to each of us on a sub- conscious level. Some see their brand as an empty vessel rendering the upstream components as they are; others see that same brand purely as an empty vessel.

Brian Walsh · Jul 8, 2014

Generally I don't pay much attention to reviews, having been down that road and developing a strong sense of skepticism, although there are exceptions and some reviewers are credible, often not based upon their popularity or notoriety. As for comments such as on Audiogon forums, they're worth what you pay for them...follow them and you'll be on the merry-go-round as much as many are, regardless of what they say. There are better ways to spend your time and money.

JackD201 · Jul 9, 2014

I think it is a deeply personal hobby. What "sounds right" or "what should sound right" is shaped by personal experience.

System Builders vs. Audiophile "Chefs". Are they one of the same?

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