Beer Taste

MylesBAstor said:

I found your comment about the reliabiity of the Jadis interesting. In the US, the importer at that time, Victor Goldstein, had a tech on staff that modded the Jadis to make them more reliable. Til then, they were the butt of many jokes by a couple of audio reviewers that I know (like one owner always turning away from the amps when he turned them on).

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Myles,

In a span of 7 or so years, it broke down 3 times. The first 2 were simply blown fuses upon turning the power switch on. There were some small parts that had to be changed. The 3rd break down scared me a bit, bec something blew/popped in the middle of my listening session and I thought I heard something popped too out of my speaker. Tech guy said more parts needed to be replaced. It was down for 2 months and I traded it in 'as is where is' for an ARC VS110. Had I retained it, I would have done the 'turning away' thing on power up, or buy some sort of a shield to protect myself.

For me tube amps are fun. The idea of all of the history tied up in them, the quest for tubes, which is sometimes just a learning experience in an of itself. I've been lucky enough to hear some very $$$ expensive solid state, and really enjoyed it, but tubes get you there just a little different. I finally got to hear some mercury vapor tubes, talk about dangerous music...

The sound is for me though. All the above wouldn't be worth a dam if it didn't sound good.

Mark

P.S anyone see the new Acura commercial with the tube amp?

MylesBAstor said:

Yes but I would like to hear a 100 wpc pure tube amp from Vlad. We talked about the ML3 and he seemed to feel that the amp wouldn't cut it on the Martin Logans. You're blessed as small wattage amps can happily drive the Wilsons I'd still like to hear a bigger wattage Lamm perhaps on your speakers to see if that would generate an even greater sense of ease! That's why years ago had the Wilson Watt Puppy Vis around to review small tube amps like the VAC and Unison.

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There's always the Lamm ML1.1 Myles. They are rated at 90wpc.

The M1.2 (110wpc) and M2.2(220wpc) hybrids (which I use) are smoother and more dimensional than many PP tube amps I've heard. The 2.2 is hole in chest material. They need more than an hour to really heat up IMO.

I bet they'd sound great with your ART pre. Why don't you ask Vlad for some review samples?

Bailed On Tubes 1977

Seeing as I am probably the geezer on this site being 67 now. Been in this hobby since 1957 when it was all tubes and mono as well. Built enough Heathkits, Eico, Scott and others to last a lifetime. Anyway in 1977 was ready just to get out of the hobby all together, tired of tinkering with the bottles and just when your ready for some serious listening a tube gives up the ghost. Walked into a now defunct high end shop and was introduced to Threshold gear. I still wear the impression to this day. This I had to have. Anyway Nelson Pass had a convert that day, and got rid of all things tube in my life and haven't looked back. Solid State now in 1977 had come a long way. I could drive damn near any speaker out there with ease, reliabilty that was unheard of, a build quality that set a standard for the industry. This is just one jaded opinion from an audiophile. But for me I have been firmly entrenched in the SS camp for 33 years and the frustration level is no where near what tube gear laid on me. Yes their is a true difference between tube vs ss gear. Some prefer one over the other. We have all heard the hyperbole of SS sound like tube and tube now has the slam of SS, whatever I guess. For me in the final analysis was to get of the tinkering bandwagon and get back to playing music with rock solid reliability. Just a thought from the geezer.

Tube gear has come a long way since 1977. That's the year I sold my Dynaco PAS-3 for an Audio Research SP-3. It's also one year after buying my first pair of Magneplananrs (MG-1's). I still use tubes to drive my current ESL's. An ARC preamp (SP-9) still serves as my control center.

Hahahaha! How could he mistake you for Mikey, Mikey doesn't look like he can press the better part of a hundred?

Am 100% tube now with an ARC Ref 5/Ref 210 mono setup. Tubes always strike as livelier and more tactile than SS. No turning back though the energy inefficiency bugs me.

MylesBAstor said:

That's probably not a bad idea but it looks like they've been reviewed to death.

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Know any reviewer who's tried 2.2's with big Logans, Myles? Any non-reviewers?

As a 2.2 owner, I know of none. I believe it is actually the least reviewed this most underrated Lamm amplifier perhaps because of its place as Lamm's least expensive despite being their most powerful. If I recall correctly it has only been reviewed briefly in Stereophile, The Robb Report and Secrets to Home Theater. If I recall correctly none were used with Stats. It has a feature that I think Stat owners might find interesting. There are two operating points that can be selected at the flick of a switch, one for 1-7 ohm loads and one for 8-16 ohm loads. It's like having two amps in one. This should make for a fun review Myles.

MylesBAstor said:

And you have a good point about using the LAMMs with ML; it might make for an interesting review.

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Let's just say that I'd be keenly interested in the results. ;-)

Myles, as it turns out, this Secrets of Home Theater review did use Final Sounds. I've no idea how the now-defunct Finals impedence curve compares to ML's, though.

Thanks, Myles. That is considerably different.

I have been on both camps, and had a great time with my Gryphon-based system with Avalon Speakers, now I am using a SET amp that hits the mark on musicality, fluidness and tonality. As my last system in a desert island (hope they have a utility company) I would pick tubes.

Great SS is dynamic, cleaner and punchy - which is not a bad thing to have, ultimately a tube-based system has the capabiñity of rendering more out of any sort of musical material IMO.

I have recently added an ARC D70Mk2 with rolled in tubes to go with my Jeff Rowland model 8 with top plate and choke. I really like to be able to switch between tubes and ss. The more important thing IMHO is to have tubes in the pre-amp stage. That is where I would not want to have ss. Using a tube amp in the summer months when it is hot is not one of my fave things to do, so the ss amp rules then. I personally like both 'presentations' if you will. Like flez007 said, Tubes are more fluid and intimate, ss is more dynamic and punchy. If you can have both, then that is IMHO the way to go. As the old saying goes..
'vive le difference'!

I try to split the difference, that's why I use hybrids mono-mono or tubes up top/SS down below bi-amping.

Started with tubes (Dynaco and Heathkit, what else?) in the early 70's. Upgraded to an old Eico amp, twin to one somebody gave me that I still have, and modified a Dynaco amp or two. Moved "up" to SS, starting with a homebrew system I built from National and Sanken app guides, progressing through various receivers and amps until a Hafler preamp built from a kit paired to a Hafler amp (DH-200?). Bi-amped speakers with a Phase 700 (that 700 was a love-hate relationship with far too little love and much hate). Worked at various TV repair shops and some high-end stereo stores, including working with some of the folk that started DiscWasher. Swung a deal to pick up an old ARC SP3a1 that was fantastic, and when the 700 blew up (again!) I managed to acquire an ARC D-79. I had gone through numerous speakers, from BIC through Infinity QLS-IIs (EMITs, great when they worked...) and had Magnepan MG-Is when I finally went "all-tube" for preamp and amp (still SS tuner, old Yamaha T-2, now in a box in the basement). I later upgraded to MG-IIIa's, and (after much searching trying to find a good match to the D-79 and speakers; Levinson and Krell just didn't) added a Counterpoint SA-220 to the D-79 and bi-amped the MG-IIIIa's. Had an ARC crossover for a while but eventually hard-wired it into the preamp (using the second set of outputs). Re-tubed and rebuilt several times over the next decade or so (late 80's to mid-90's), and modified the SP3a1 several times.

The advent of kids, new job, and a move put my gear in storage for a decade or so. Right before that, my ever-faithful D-79 blew an output tube, taking some other stuff with it, and I did not have the time nor money to repair it. We later moved to a new place, but work and Life was so demanding I never hauled out my old stereo gear. I bought a mid-range Yamaha receiver and pair of KEF speakers, then later a Denon AVR and Infinity Betas for a 3.1 (no surrounds) system in the family room. The years passed.

Two years ago, nearly 15 years in our new home, we finished the basement and I built a media room (floating walls and ceiling, independent HVAC, tricks from my installer and studio engineer days). I picked up a set of Mirage sats and sub for upstairs and moved the Infinity's down, adding more Nanosats for surrounds and rears, and new Denon AVR. First real HT system. Decided after some comparison listening I would never again get small speakers like the OMD-5's for mains (L/R); just didn't like the "small" sound and it was too easy to localize the sub with 80 Hz xover. The journey began anew...

A friend wanted help and as he was fairly well-heeled and wanted to try some nice speakers I helped him listen to B&W. Working with him, and thinking on my own HT stuff, made me realize how much I missed "hi-fi". My thoughts of getting perhaps a pair of new B&W 801's was quickly squelched by sticker-shock; the 801's were within striking distance of my budget in the 80's, but I liked the Maggies better. Now, they were totally out of reach. My friend struggled mightily but ended up with the 803D's; the difference between them and the 804's he had planned to get was simply too great. He also raved about his new AVR, a Pioneer SC-27, and all the things it could do.

Long story short (too late, I know), I dug up my MG-IIIa's and found them working. Out went the Infinity's, upstairs, and the Mirage system is sitting in the basement waiting for me to hook it up for the game room. A shiny new SC-27 took over for my fairly-new mid-range Sony and I gained an appreciation for modern room control (MCACC) and what a top-notch AVR offered. Feeling a bit underpowered (probably all in my head), and at the urging of that same friend who had picked up monoblocks for his B&W's (what are friends for?), I picked up a nearly-new Emotiva XPA-3, followed shortly by an XPA-2, and added Magnepan MC1's as surrounds and an Opp BD-83 (regular, using HDMI). I'd forgotten how good music could sound, and after generally ignoring the HT side for years discovered how great the sound and picture in the latest movies could be. I'm starting fresh in a new world and enjoying every minute!

I am gradually planning to sell my tube equipment as I simply haven't the time, energy, and resources to put into it that I once had. I really loved the sound, knowing it was colored, but I liked its color. My new system sounds very good to me, and I confess I have moved past listening to the equipment and want to simply listen to the music. I am also making music again, picking up my trumpet after 20 years off, and for the past 12 years now (hardly seems that long) have been playing in various groups around town (and accruing more horns, offset by a grand piano for my wife to avoid hogging all the musical instruments in the house). I am planning a few more upgrades, including finishing my room treatment (mostly done now, as much as I can -- the room ended up less than ideal in dimensions when we added a bedroom in the basement for my younger son, and my wood shop became an exercise/craft room for my wife). I moved things around and have a 7.1 setup now after dropping to 5.1 when I installed the Maggies; the rears are Mirage Nanosats soon to head out in favor of another pair of MC1s. The Pioneer is likely to move upstairs, giving me HDMI up in the family room, and an Integra DHC-80.2 is a gleam in my eye (I will have to pick up a small amp for the rears, natch).

I am a little sad I never restored and turned on the tube equipment, and probably never shall... It has been in storage nearly 15 years now and needs a lot of TLC, time, and money I simply am unwilling to spend now that I have a decent system. I miss the warm glow and warm sound of my tubes, but know most of the newer SS gear is technically superior and am happy with what I have going. Probably just old ears of clay, but my current system is enough to impress me. I had thought to retain the old gear for retirement puttering, but retirement is many years off, the restoration and upkeep is daunting, I have an HT system now that all can use instead of a basic stereo system, and I would rather see it all go to a good owner who will get as much joy out of it as I had back then.

And yet, I still wonder if, if someday I will return to tubes... The cost of gear now approaching the class of gear I had then is pretty steep, though, and will likely remain far out of reach. I am glad I had a taste of it so long ago, and equally glad that technology has moved on and provided me with sound that I can be happy to hear today. Not too mention see! - Don