Beer Taste

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Not that much difference between that beer commercial and tube vs transistor lovers. Less filling. Better taste. Never going to get those two groups to agree ever!

Now many audiophiles are of the mind that the sound of tubes and solid-state are converging. Yes the latest piece of tube gear are more neutral with greater extension at the frequency extremes. Yes solid state is smoother, less harsh eg more musical and images better.

So I know everyone here has given a great deal of thought as to whether you've chosen to base your system around solid state or tube amps or preamps. Why? There are many reasons that enter into the selection process such as personal choice, sonics, type of speakers, heat, reliability, availability of tubes, etc. So what led to your choice of electronics? And did you start out as favoring one or the other and return to the dark side?
 
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rsbeck

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I was a confirmed Solid State guy until I went to OB's.

That system will make you question your place in the universe.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I was a confirmed Solid State guy until I went to OB's.

That system will make you question your place in the universe.

Suffice it to say I am all tubes and have no plans to ever change that
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

I was a tube fan until I heard the Burmester electronics .. I have come listening to a variety of systems that SS have come a long way they are up THERE.... Tubes also have gotten better ..
There is convergence no doubt but SS seem to evolve faster ... although I continue to have a fondness for tubes

Frantz
 

soundofvoid

WBF Founding Member
Apr 22, 2010
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This might be an interesting story to read:
I have started with SS amplification:A big intergraded by PIONEER from the upper class ELITE/PIANO BLACK series around '87.For a couple years i was happy, as it was on par with my Infinity Kappas of the time.
By the way the EMMIT-K ribbont tweeter was my first contact with the world of planar transducers!Then i moved to a ROTEL MICHI combo,started with the passive preamp (didn't like it much),switched to the active one
to play along with the big 2X200 amp.I moved to KAPPAs 9a which was my dream speaker of the time (bought secondhand) but to my surprise they ate the 2X200 38 kilos Rotel for lunch!So i got another MICHI series
2X100 amp and used the big one for the bass and the smaller one for the rest.It played music like a dream...or so it seemed to my ears.
It was 1996 when i first seriously listened to tubes.The audio press in Greece (where i live) raved about the sound of the Golden tube audio SEP-1 and SE-40 combo that were affordable to many.I went for a listening session which was a revelation!
The delicate hues of sound that i first heard (through a medium sized speaker) was something beyond my horizon.BUT my listening room is 4.5X9 meters (roughly 14,5 X 29 feet) and a small speaker was out of the question as i LOVE bass!
So i started by injecting a little "tube sound" into my system with the arrival of the GTA SEP-2 preamp (with remote).You can't get enough of a good thing and whithin 1,5 year i moved the SEP-3 top model preamp
with internal tubed phono board and outboard PS with tubed rectification.
Out went the Rotels and the Kappas (to a house of a good friend who still cherishes them) and in came the DENON S-10 monoblocks and the QUADRAL VULKAN MKV speakers.Ahhh... those were interesting times!
It seemed that i was getting there...almost!
My new speakers (around 2002) had a 10 inch TL loaded woofer a planar mid and a ribbon tweeter.My hands were itching for a tube amp but my tests revealed that the bass suffered whenever i tried to use a tube amp of moderate wattage(read affordable!).BUT it was evident that the -planar/ribbon/tubes- synergy was special. So i thought:"Why not use a combination of the two?" It's like having your cake and eating it too!
One day,when visiting my favorite audio store i noticed a beautiful amp laying on the carpet.It was one of those "love at first sight (only) moments" because ...i couldn't hear it.
It was a brand new GTA SE-100 that was producing a loud hum/buzz when playing music.The rep had tried to solve the problem at least three times but the amp kept returning with the same problem.
This amp really made me drool!Heavy (around 45 Kgs) wide (51 cms) ,powerfull (2X100 or 1X200 in balanced mode) and imposing with it's center positioned 10 EL34 and one 6SN7.It was my definition of eye candy!
It was 2003 and the amp got loaded in my car as i offered to buy it (at a bargain price) IF the problem was solved.A marathon of running around to find someone to repair the unrepairable problem started then...
Remember that i had no schematics in my hands so it was a bit of hit and miss situation.Finally after a year(!) i got fed up by this endless pursuit and i bought the amp(!) deciding that if you want something to be done right,YOU have to make it!I took the whole thing appart and measured all the transformers and chokes.All measured well,thus i moved on to replace EVERY other part in the amp bar the boards plus mods to specific areas.In place of the medium quality original parts,top parts were used (ouch!).I am talking about resistors,caps,diodes,tubes,cables,output/input posts,trimmers ,the lot!I put it all back together and with trembling hands i pressed the "power on" button.No hum!!!!
Checked the bias and left it on for 4 hours :nothing happened-all looked ok!Moved it into my system and used my solid state monos for the bass only and powered the rest with the tubes.A quick leveling of the two parts with the use of the input trimpots ...and let it rip!Heaven on earth!Solid state bass and ethereal mids and highs.I WAS THERE!I still am!Tubes are made for planars and solid state is made for bass-my motto!
 

kach22i

WBF Founding Member
Apr 21, 2010
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www.kachadoorian.com
GTA SE-100 that was producing a loud hum/buzz when playing music.
In my SE-100 I had a hum which was getting louder but faded out when the volume was turned up. In between songs was a this hum, more in the right channel than the left.

The hum was getting a bit scary sounding but I was also getting used to it so I let my worries go.

I then blew a tube shortly after biasing them (right side).

Put the new Tung_Sol EL34's in and no more hum.

I should say without the music playing there is a slight hum, but you have to put your ear pretty close to the speaker to hear it.

I'm guessing the first thing you did was check all the tubes, so all that work was well spent.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Myles-SS is smoother and less harsh than tubes?? Did you mean to say that tubes were smoother and less harsh? I have never heard anyone say that SS is smoother than tubes before. I started off my journey with SS systems (except when I was a kid and had all tubes). After having SS receivers, I went to a NAD 3020A integrated amp which really was a nice sounding integrated with a nice phono section. I later used the NAD 3020A as a preamp with a Hafler DH-220 that I built from a kit and later installed the Van Alstine power supply board. I next upgraded the preamp to the PS Audio 4H. I lived happily with that combo for awhile. And then I had a chance to buy a Dynaco ST-70 from the original owner. I cleaned it up, installed new tubes, and suddenly realized that tubes sound better than SS. I packed the DH-220 up and sold it. Then I started my journey with tube preamps and I never looked back. My next power amp was the ARC D-76 and it was a revelation. The poor ST-70 couldn't hold a candle to the ARC D-76 in any area.

In a weak moment I tried to switch back to a SS amp (the Pass Labs X-250) after I became completely disgusted with the ARC VT-100 MKII for its S/M method of setting bias. The Pass Labs X-250 just couldn't cut it in comparison to a good tube amp so I switched back to tubes.

To me, tubes sound like live music being played in your room and SS sounds like you are listening to a reproduction of live music in your room. It's really that simple to me. Music lives and breathes in those magic glass bottles with electrons flowing through a vacuum. SS is pushing electrons through a semiconductor. I just want what sounds real and for me, and that is what tubes give you (most of the time-I thought the Mcintosh C2300 sounded very SS).

I need to caveat all of the above by saying that I don’t have exposure to all of the SS high-priced spread that so many of you do. It is certainly possible that there is some SS gear that would knock my socks off if I could only hear it. I thought the Pass Labs X-250 should be fairly representative of what you could expect from modern SS electronics. If there is some SS gear that could actually sound more real (and I mean sound more like live music) than tubes, I probably couldn’t afford it.

Mark
 
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MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Myles-SS is smoother and less harsh than tubes?? Did you mean to say that tubes were smoother and less harsh? I have never heard anyone say that SS is smoother than tubes before.
Mark

No perhaps didn't state it correctly. What I meant is that todays solid-state is smoother than yesteryears solid state--not tubes. There's less grain and designers aren't resorting to darkening or adding distortions (some of the Mark Levinson products/Harman gen) to the sound to make solid state amps sound more like tubes.

I think also like HP said years ago, noise with solid state amps is manifested between the instruments; with tubes its in front of the soundstage. So there's more separation of space between musicians with solid state than ever before; with tubes amps, one can see deeper into the soundstage. In fact, with the newest cj gear for instance, reel to reel recordings of some 15 ips Columbia or Impulse jazz are spookily real; one can almost reach out and put your arms around the drums set in the back of the stage!
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
To me, tubes sound like live music being played in your room and SS sounds like you are listening to a reproduction of live music in your room. It's really that simple to me. Music lives and breathes in those magic glass bottles with electrons flowing through a vacuum. SS is pushing electrons through a semiconductor. I just want what sounds real and for me, and that is what tubes give you (most of the time-I thought the Mcintosh C2300 sounded very SS).

Mark

I agree completely. For my ears, tubes sound like live music with me in the sweet spot. I remember my gradual descent into tubes (which later became a rapid free fall). My last ALL SS system included 3 Krell 750 Mcx's playing a pair of Wilson X-1 Series lll and the other playing a Wilson XS. So much power. The bass could blow a hole through your chest.,Entire front end was Krell. When I played it in my home theater it was killer as well. Then I started to think about tubes only because I knew nothing about them. Everyone's advice was to do it gradually and start with the preamp because this at least gives all of your source components a pass through a tube preamp. When I heard how good it was I was smitten. My last 3 tube amps were ARC Ref 600 Mklll then Lamm ML 2.1 and now the one which will be here permanently is my Lamm Ml3 Signature played with the new Lamm LL1 Signature preamp into Wilson X-2 Series ll.What did I give up? Well that huge bass in your chest slam even with my Ref600's (which had teriffic bass). That is not to be interpreted as "no bass" but rather different bass. It is as Mark says....like live music and for me that is what it's about. As good as my SS system was it just didn't sound like tubes but that's just my opinion.

Disclaimer: I have posted before that I have affiliations with Lamm and have outlined completely in the "Introduce Yourselves" part of our forum
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Mark

I agree completely. For my ears, tubes sound like live music with me in the sweet spot. I remember my gradual descent into tubes (which later became a rapid free fall). My last ALL SS system included 3 Krell 750 Mcx's playing a pair of Wilson X-1 Series lll and the other playing a Wilson XS. So much power. The bass could blow a hole through your chest.,Entire front end was Krell. When I played it in my home theater it was killer as well. Then I started to think about tubes only because I knew nothing about them. Everyone's advice was to do it gradually and start with the preamp because this at least gives all of your source components a pass through a tube preamp. When I heard how good it was I was smitten. My last 3 tube amps were ARC Ref 600 Mklll then Lamm ML 2.1 and now the one which will be here permanently is my Lamm Ml3 Signature played with the new Lamm LL1 Signature preamp into Wilson X-2 Series ll.What did I give up? Well that huge bass in your chest slam even with my Ref600's (which had teriffic bass). That is not to be interpreted as "no bass" but rather different bass. It is as Mark says....like live music and for me that is what it's about. As good as my SS system was it just didn't sound like tubes but that's just my opinion.

Disclaimer: I have posted before that I have affiliations with Lamm and have outlined completely in the "Introduce Yourselves" part of our forum

Don't you wish that Vlad would build a bigger amp???? His biggest wouldn't put a dent in my speakers :(
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Don't you wish that Vlad would build a bigger amp???? His biggest wouldn't put a dent in my speakers :(


Have you heard the ML3's?

32wpc SET.

The bass is terrific just different than my Krell

I never said what I gained with tubes which for my ears the most realistic mid range I have ever head
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Myles-If memory serves me correctly (and I have a great memory-it’s just not too long), what HP said was that tubes decode noise differently than SS. I believe he said that tubes decode noise in a separate plane from the music which made it easy for the brain to ignore while SS mixed the noise with the music.

Mark
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
11,236
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New York City
Myles-If memory serves me correctly (and I have a great memory-it’s just not too long), what HP said was that tubes decode noise differently than SS. I believe he said that tubes decode noise in a separate plane from the music which made it easy for the brain to ignore while SS mixed the noise with the music.

Mark

Exactly and that's how the noise maifested itself in the recording.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,236
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1,725
New York City
Have you heard the ML3's?

32wpc SET.

The bass is terrific just different than my Krell

I never said what I gained with tubes which for my ears the most realistic mid range I have ever head

Yes but I would like to hear a 100 wpc pure tube amp from Vlad. We talked about the ML3 and he seemed to feel that the amp wouldn't cut it on the Martin Logans. You're blessed as small wattage amps can happily drive the Wilsons :( I'd still like to hear a bigger wattage Lamm perhaps on your speakers to see if that would generate an even greater sense of ease! That's why years ago had the Wilson Watt Puppy Vis around to review small tube amps like the VAC and Unison.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Kach-I like your suggestion. I probably should use that as a tag line (if I liked tag lines) because it's so true.

Mark
 

jadis

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Apr 28, 2010
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Manila, Philippines
Been using tube amps since the mid 80s. First was the ARC D115, then ARC D125, then VTL 120s, then CJ MV 125, then Jadis JA200s, and now ARC VS110. I would have lived with the Jadis monos till now but it proved to be too volatile and unreliable, so in came the ARC VS110. My first and only SS amp was the Sumo Polaris, prior to the ARC D115.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
11,236
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New York City
Been using tube amps since the mid 80s. First was the ARC D115, then ARC D125, then VTL 120s, then CJ MV 125, then Jadis JA200s, and now ARC VS110. I would have lived with the Jadis monos till now but it proved to be too volatile and unreliable, so in came the ARC VS110. My first and only SS amp was the Sumo Polaris, prior to the ARC D115.

I found your comment about the reliabiity of the Jadis interesting. In the US, the importer at that time, Victor Goldstein, had a tech on staff that modded the Jadis to make them more reliable. Til then, they were the butt of many jokes by a couple of audio reviewers that I know (like one owner always turning away from the amps when he turned them on).
 

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