STACKED PAIRS OF ESL-57's WITH SUPERTWEETERS - ANYONE STILL HEARS THESE SPEAKERS?

JackD201

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I have three friends all local with the Levinson stacked Quads. None IIRC have the subs but two have the ML XO's. What can I say? Loved the tone baby!
 
Thanks for your comments, yes it's a "sin" not have a pair of HARTLEY 24 INCHES WOOFERS, but the creator himself always said of his "creature":

" Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other.This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else.If gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers HAS NEVER BEEN VERY GOOD" - Peter J.Walker ( Audio Amateur, 3/78)
 

microstrip

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Thanks for your comments, yes it's a "sin" not have a pair of HARTLEY 24 INCHES WOOFERS, but the creator himself always said of his "creature":

" Another thing people do is to use two of our panels, one above the other.This is quite reasonable because it is really a strip source, you can extend the strip source without deteriorating anything. All you do is add 6dB at the bottom end and 3dB everywhere else.If gives you a louder sound, a more impressive sound. That's all right. Adding woofers HAS NEVER BEEN VERY GOOD" - Peter J.Walker ( Audio Amateur, 3/78)

These words should be read in the context of PJW beliefs about loudspeaker bandwidth. As far as I remember PJW considered that there was an equilibrium between bass and treble roll off - if you extended one of them you should also extend the other. IMHO it is partially why he disagreed with using subwoofers with his electrostatics. The HQD system did not violate this rule, as it extended treble and bass.

A good friend of mine living less than half mile from me assembled such system in the 80's, using the Mark Levinson crossovers at 100 and 7000 Hz. He owned a very large room and it was easily the best bass reproduction I have ever listened to. As far as I remember each sub was over 1000 pounds - the space between the double wall boxes was filled wit a special sand!
 

DonH50

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Jun 22, 2010
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These days I would add a pair of good modern servo subs to complement the panels. Those Hartley's were a bit of a bear to drive... There are lots of fine subwoofers available now that are much easier to integrate with the mains.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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These words should be read in the context of PJW beliefs about loudspeaker bandwidth. As far as I remember PJW considered that there was an equilibrium between bass and treble roll off - if you extended one of them you should also extend the other. IMHO it is partially why he disagreed with using subwoofers with his electrostatics. The HQD system did not violate this rule, as it extended treble and bass.

A good friend of mine living less than half mile from me assembled such system in the 80's, using the Mark Levinson crossovers at 100 and 7000 Hz. He owned a very large room and it was easily the best bass reproduction I have ever listened to. As far as I remember each sub was over 1000 pounds - the space between the double wall boxes was filled wit a special sand!

I never heard the renowned HQD system but how did a 24 inch woofer ever match the speed of the electrostatic? I'd have to imagine that 24-inch driver was pretty slow in the day? Like the bass driver would say to the midrange driver don't wait up for me, I'll be along later? :)

And we're not even talking about all the different dispersion patterns? Seems like a great exercise in building a full range speaker back then, but more like a choosing from a Chinese menu. Just because you pick the three "best" drivers in the day doesn't make a great speaker. Like I often wondered what you could do with an electrostatic midrange and Maggie bass panel and ribbon tweeters. Kind of like the old QRS/1D. But alas Magnepan won't sell their parts separately.
 
These days I would add a pair of good modern servo subs to complement the panels. Those Hartley's were a bit of a bear to drive... There are lots of fine subwoofers available now that are much easier to integrate with the mains.

Yes, MR. Herman, I do agree that are modern powered subwoofers now that could integrate with the panels, but here in Brazil, the price for me would be prohibitive due to the very high import taxes...
 

JackD201

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Is that a Townshend Max I see in between?
 

Peter Breuninger

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I think history belongs in the past. These fantastic old multi driver type systems (IRS, RS1Bs, HQDs, QRS 1Ds) can be very convincing on select program material but they lack the integration of todays' systems such as Magico S/Q 3s or 5s, YG Sonja, Wilson Alexia or XLF. Perhaps I have heard too many discombobulated systems over the years and now that I have heard the new better integrated technologies I can't go back.
 
st2.jpg Yes, it's the Max Townshend "Super" Tweeter ( ribbon); designed with the ESL-57 in mind,but works well with other speakers, of course.

"Add-on super tweeters have been around for a long time, and are now having a resurgence in popularity, perhaps due to the new formats that push the frequency envelope. Ribbon tweeters from Decca and semispherical piezoelectric tweeters from MuRata have garnered much acclaim among the audiophile faithful. What we have here is the latest from Max Townshend of Townshend Audio, add-on ribbon tweeters that will extend the frequency of your speakers to a point that can drive the neighbor's dog batty. Looking like electric razors from an era long past, the Townshend Audio Maximum Super Tweeters have a claimed ruler-flat frequency response of 20kHz to 70kHz (-3dB at 12kHz and -6dB at 90kHz). The sensitivity is adjustable via a stepped attenuator, to suit speakers ranging from 80 to 110dB in sensitivity. Their impedance is a nominal 6 ohms at 20kHz and increases to 30 ohms at 100kHz, though they look like a rather benign 8 ohms to the amplifier. They can handle up to 350 watts, so unless you are planning on killing your self and your system, they should be fine with any sensible amplifier. And they are quite heavy despite being so small—meaning their magnet is rather beefy."
 

puroagave

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another esl-57 fan [hand raised]. mine are packed and put away for future appreciation. tell us more about your amps, they look superficially like futterman OTL-3s.
 

microstrip

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I never heard the renowned HQD system but how did a 24 inch woofer ever match the speed of the electrostatic? I'd have to imagine that 24-inch driver was pretty slow in the day? Like the bass driver would say to the midrange driver don't wait up for me, I'll be along later? :)

And we're not even talking about all the different dispersion patterns? Seems like a great exercise in building a full range speaker back then, but more like a choosing from a Chinese menu. Just because you pick the three "best" drivers in the day doesn't make a great speaker. Like I often wondered what you could do with an electrostatic midrange and Maggie bass panel and ribbon tweeters. Kind of like the old QRS/1D. But alas Magnepan won't sell their parts separately.

Myles,

Although many of our members dislike the idea of "slow bass" I must say that if you ever saw the 24" Hartley woofer and taped its cone you would understand why it could sound fast. We should also remember that it was used in a 500 litter box.

Surely most modern systems will show more coherence, less coloration and perhaps better microdynamics. But if you valuate having a real big band in your room in all its scale, the HQD system will make the modern great mesuring speakers sound like a band of miniatures.
 
another esl-57 fan [hand raised]. mine are packed and put away for future appreciation. tell us more about your amps, they look superficially like futterman OTL-3s.

Thanks Mr agave for your comments: yes, but if you can, "unpack" yours... The Transcendent T-8 monos ( from respected american designer Bruce Rozenblit) are very good OTL amps based on ancient Futterman designs, and performs very well with only ONE PAIR of the 57's, BUT with the ESL's 57 STACKED ( one pair or even 3 speakers per side) they performed much much better ( just my opinion) with "little" CROFT 7 R stereo amp. ( a "hybrid" design by Mr Glenn Croft with 12AU7/AX7 input plus output mosfets - 55W/channel). This amp drives the "panels" with more ease and surprisingly autority and clarity. proto_pwr_mid.jpg
 

puroagave

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Thanks Mr agave for your comments: yes, but if you can, "unpack" yours... The Transcendent T-8 monos ( from respected american designer Bruce Rozenblit) are very good OTL amps based on ancient Futterman designs, and performs very well with only ONE PAIR of the 57's, BUT with the ESL's 57 STACKED ( one pair or even 3 speakers per side) they performed much much better ( just my opinion) with "little" CROFT 7 R stereo amp. ( a "hybrid" design by Mr Glenn Croft with 12AU7/AX7 input plus output mosfets - 55W/channel). This amp drives the "panels" with more ease and surprisingly autority and clarity.

I had my 57s in use until last summer. im a certified nut job with regard to ESLs, until recently I had two pairs of martin logan CLSes which now reside with new owners. I have Acoustat 2+2s now on permanent loan. famous last words but this time I will never part my 57s (again) :eek: when they were running I used the Bedini 25/25, classe dr-2, Radford STA25, Graaf Gm20 (OTL), and VTL tiny triodes - all with good success. the last 'first' for me will be the levinson ML-2...someday ill try a pair.

I haven't had the pleasure of trying a croft OTL or his hybrids, his stuff gets slammed for measuring poorly. this may explain why Glenn wont hand out samples or bother with 'expert' reviews.
 

BruceD

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Dec 13, 2013
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I think history belongs in the past. These fantastic old multi driver type systems (IRS, RS1Bs, HQDs, QRS 1Ds) can be very convincing on select program material but they lack the integration of todays' systems such as Magico S/Q 3s or 5s, YG Sonja, Wilson Alexia or XLF. Perhaps I have heard too many discombobulated systems over the years and now that I have heard the new better integrated technologies I can't go back.

Really?--Interesting

BruceD
 

BruceD

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Myles,

Although many of our members dislike the idea of "slow bass" I must say that if you ever saw the 24" Hartley woofer and taped its cone you would understand why it could sound fast. We should also remember that it was used in a 500 litter box.

Surely most modern systems will show more coherence, less coloration and perhaps better microdynamics. But if you valuate having a real big band in your room in all its scale, the HQD system will make the modern great mesuring speakers sound like a band of miniatures.

Yes indeed--I've heard the full house HQD system--superb and superior to 90% of the modern offerings--a poster mentioned Magicos/YG's as todays answers-- um more of a joke I'd say

I've owned Stacked Quads /Sequeera T1 Ribbons and the 24" Hartley--it would smoke the "modern" Speakers mentioned overleaf.

Great System MS57--enjoy!

BruceD
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Really?--Interesting

BruceD

What specifically do you disagree with? Audiophiles look back on things with rose colored glasses. Great if you like colorations galore too.

But then again, you know I'm not at 57 fan by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Really?--Interesting

BruceD

English language not beeing my native language, I understand that according to

Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms

discombobulated - having self-possession upset; thrown into confusion; "the hecklers pelted the discombobulated speaker with anything that came to hand"; "looked at each other dumbly, quite disconcerted"- G.B.Shaw
disconcerted
discomposed - having your composure disturbed; "looked about with a wandering and discomposed air"


There is some electronic misunderstanding but the truth is that the Quad 57 is a three way. It has two large bass panels each with three sections. These flank the centre panel which has three section, the outer two are mid section and the centre section is the tweeter section. Many people mistake this panel as three tweeter sections which it is not.

Design these things in 1955 (…) specially the center section ( two middle ( midrange) and one center ( tweeter) and make them work properly with the bass panels, is quite remarkable.

Coherent, in speaker terms, (IMO) basically means clear, concise, well-defined, and seamless, with no detachment of the woofer/s from the mids and tweeters. Not blurred at all. The Quad ESL 57 is a good example of a "coherent-sounding" speaker.

With all due respect, I can assure that the ESL-57 ( one pair or double-stacked) of course is/are not up the very finest American speakers mentioned by him, BUT “discombobulated” ( confused “per se “ or confusing the listener…) they aren’t. Nevertheless, mine panels are "naked", without frontal or back grilles. A little "discomposed" then...
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,236
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1,725
New York City
English language not beeing my native language, I understand that according to

Thesaurus Legend: Synonyms Related Words Antonyms

discombobulated - having self-possession upset; thrown into confusion; "the hecklers pelted the discombobulated speaker with anything that came to hand"; "looked at each other dumbly, quite disconcerted"- G.B.Shaw
disconcerted
discomposed - having your composure disturbed; "looked about with a wandering and discomposed air"


There is some electronic misunderstanding but the truth is that the Quad 57 is a three way. It has two large bass panels each with three sections. These flank the centre panel which has three section, the outer two are mid section and the centre section is the tweeter section. Many people mistake this panel as three tweeter sections which it is not.

Design these things in 1955 (…) specially the center section ( two middle ( midrange) and one center ( tweeter) and make them work properly with the bass panels, is quite remarkable.

Coherent, in speaker terms, (IMO) basically means clear, concise, well-defined, and seamless, with no detachment of the woofer/s from the mids and tweeters. Not blurred at all. The Quad ESL 57 is a good example of a "coherent-sounding" speaker.

With all due respect, I can assure that the ESL-57 ( one pair or double-stacked) of course is/are not up the very finest American speakers mentioned by him, BUT “discombobulated” ( confused “per se “ or confusing the listener…) they aren’t. Nevertheless, mine panels are "naked", without frontal or back grilles. A little "discomposed" then...

I don't think Peter was referring to Quads per se but other speaker designs of the time like the aforementioned QRS/1D, etc.
 

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