Cartridge Loading- A Misnomer

PeterA

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Bruce, I realize this thread has veered off topic, but I'm curious about your current thoughts on your SME 30/2. Which cartridge and tonearm cable are you now using? Have you played it through your main system or is it still only in your headphone system? And finally, how does it compare to other turntables with which you have had experience?

Any further comments would be most interesting and help to revive this thread. Thanks.
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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How many of us have experimented with loading in the ranges of 47k, 10k or 1k? Most seem to prefer ~ 500 or lower. My Ayre P5xe sounds best at 47k or 1000 with a Lyra Kleos. I'm not sure if people are more successful with minimal loading and SS phonostage designs. I do most of my listening at ~85-90 db so that may play a part in my preference.

Loading all depends on whether you are using active gain or passive (transformer) gain. The proper loading values for passive closely mirror those of the internal impedance value of the cart. With active, the load is usually much higher...100-500 ohms, ime.
 

MylesBAstor

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I was asked by Peter to move several posts from another thread to be a part of his proposed new thread

So has anyone done any more experimentation with the pluses or minuses of cable capacitance upon the sound of their MC cartridges?
 

ack

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I can't think of any pluses with high capacitance, for MC. I ended up removing the 100pF loading caps from the XP-25 and raised the resistive loading to 1K as well as set the impedance on the MA-X phono cable to 1K, and the results are as expected: faster, less veiled and more dynamic sound. Also, as I may have mentioned before, one of the main reasons I chose the JMW 10.5i arm was because of the very low capacitance of its Valhalla wire.
 

audioarcher

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I can't think of any pluses with high capacitance, for MC. I ended up removing the 100pF loading caps from the XP-25 and raised the resistive loading to 1K as well as set the impedance on the MA-X phono cable to 1K, and the results are as expected: faster, less veiled and more dynamic sound. Also, as I may have mentioned before, one of the main reasons I chose the JMW 10.5i arm was because of the very low capacitance of its Valhalla wire.

Sounds like a positive result. I think I will look into that with my phono stage.

Did you try some Vishay TX2575 Z-foil loading resistors? They will also lower the capacitance a little. They have the lowest inductance and capacitance of any resistor design, and the lowest noise. Highly recommended!
 

ack

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I didn't try any resistors simply because I would have to do the same with the MA-X's impedance network (whatever that is), which is impossible. What this may also be saying is that the overall impedance is 1K and 1K _in parallel_ between phono and cable, thus 500ohms total, but I need to measure and verify the overall impedance. If that's the case, the phono will have to go up to 47K, for a theoretical total of 979 ohms and the closest to 1K, or remove the 47K resistor on the phono entirely, leaving the MIT's as the only loading impedance.
 

audioarcher

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I didn't try any resistors simply because I would have to do the same with the MA-X's impedance network (whatever that is), which is impossible. What this may also be saying is that the overall impedance is 1K and 1K _in parallel_ between phono and cable, thus 500ohms total, but I need to measure and verify the overall impedance. If that's the case, the phono will have to go up to 47K, for a theoretical total of 979 ohms and the closest to 1K, or remove the 47K resistor on the phono entirely, leaving the MIT's as the only loading impedance.

I see. You could try a non networked cable between the VPI and the XP25. A networked cable in this position may not be a good thing.
 

ack

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With respect to impedance, a network cable may indeed not be the best option in this application; but a network cable with impedance _adjustments_ in order to match/mate with the target component's (phono) impedance is perhaps fine - and MIT are the only ones who do that (essentially reflect the target component's input impedance).

The thing is, the articulation technology works so well sound-wise plus apparently lowers noise so dramatically (also evident on line-level interconnects and speaker cables), that you cannot dismiss it in this position. Having said that, at the end of the day, there is no free lunch with anything: the articulation networks will affect impedance on their own, and the impedance adjustment will try to compensate for that, with the goal being that the phono loading impedance is overall [hopefully] unchanged. This is pretty tricky stuff.

What I would call just the wrong thing to do is use other so-called networked phono cables that "match" cartridge and phono stage - a fundamentally flawed approach, simply because users adjust loading impedance on the phono stage, thus breaking any "matching" done by the cable designer. I simply call these types of cables tone controls, as they solve no engineering problem between cartridge and phono whatsoever (and none exist, other than what MIT does and no one else can, but even then those problems relate to the wire itself, not the cart and phono), nor do they at line level either between two already matched components, from the same manufacturer or not.
 

MylesBAstor

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With respect to impedance, a network cable may indeed not be the best option in this application; but a network cable with impedance _adjustments_ in order to match/mate with the target component's (phono) impedance is perhaps fine - and MIT are the only ones who do that (essentially reflect the target component's input impedance).

The thing is, the articulation technology works so well sound-wise plus apparently lowers noise so dramatically (also evident on line-level interconnects and speaker cables), that you cannot dismiss it in this position. Having said that, at the end of the day, there is no free lunch with anything: the articulation networks will affect impedance on their own, and the impedance adjustment will try to compensate for that, with the goal being that the phono loading impedance is overall [hopefully] unchanged. This is pretty tricky stuff.

What I would call just the wrong thing to do is use other so-called networked phono cables that "match" cartridge and phono stage - a fundamentally flawed approach, simply because users adjust loading impedance on the phono stage, thus breaking any "matching" done by the cable designer. I simply call these types of cables tone controls, as they solve no engineering problem between cartridge and phono whatsoever (and none exist, other than what MIT does and no one else can, but even then those problems relate to the wire itself, not the cart and phono), nor do they at line level either between two already matched components, from the same manufacturer or not.

The MIT Oracle is still the best phono cable I've ever heard in my system.
 

DonH50

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It may be worth noting that some preamps, tube in particular, have very high input capacitance due to the Miller effect. May be true for some SS preamps as well, I do not know. And some preamps include RFI filtering that could add a lot of capacitance. So chances are you'll have to tweak to find your sweet spot anyway.

I have always striven for the lowest-capacitance cables I could find for phono interconnects, preferring to add capacitance if needed at the load. I used coax cable designed for some datacom applications that was around 10-12 pF/ft, about 1/2 - 1/3 that of typical coax cable. I made interconnects from my (tube) preamp to my (tube) power amp at the same time due to their high impedances.
 

TBone

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one at 24/192 is even better.

Nah, it's a matter of perspective: as a sharing "tool" ... 16/44 is preferable because near any audiophile can replay "hi-end" redbook while higher#'s formats require more specific "hi-rez" reproduction tools. And besides, I've done quite a 'bit' of rip-sharing over the last decade, and without reservation, I can safely state that whatever rec.format was used, the sonic nature of the turntable/rig still dominates ...
 

audioarcher

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It may be worth noting that some preamps, tube in particular, have very high input capacitance due to the Miller effect. May be true for some SS preamps as well, I do not know. And some preamps include RFI filtering that could add a lot of capacitance. So chances are you'll have to tweak to find your sweet spot anyway.

I have always striven for the lowest-capacitance cables I could find for phono interconnects, preferring to add capacitance if needed at the load. I used coax cable designed for some datacom applications that was around 10-12 pF/ft, about 1/2 - 1/3 that of typical coax cable. I made interconnects from my (tube) preamp to my (tube) power amp at the same time due to their high impedances.

I think you mean Johnson–Nyquist noise? The Miller effect does not seem to fit what you are saying.
 

MylesBAstor

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MylesBAstor

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What Myles said. Wrote. Linked. Whatever! :)

The usual solution is a cascode input stage, something most op-amps use, many SS designs (often discrete but op-amp like), but few tube designs IME.

Only because Nick Doshi and I were discussing the Miller effect and how he tackled the issue in his newest phono section designs. :)
 

audioarcher

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What Myles said. Wrote. Linked. Whatever! :)

The usual solution is a cascode input stage, something most op-amps use, many SS designs (often discrete but op-amp like), but few tube designs IME.

Got it. I read it, but either did not get it or I did not read it closely enough. Makes sense now.
 

DonH50

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Good, thank Myles!

There are other solutions than cascode stages but that is the easiest and usually the most stable. Cascoding, though the term is derived from tube circuits (where they were originally developed, like almost everything else), is rarely used IME because it doubles the tubes and supply voltages can get ridiculous with tube designs. I don't think it is easy to create complementary tubes :) so folded cascodes are even more rare in tube circuits. I once tried a rather convoluted folded-cascode tube design that worked but wasn't really practical to produce in volume.

Noise (Johnson/thermal, shot, flicker, or whatever) is not the topic of this thread, so I won't go into what the Miller effect does to the noise transfer function... Depends on the source impedance anyway.
 

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