Computer Audio: confusing, complicated, & INCONVENIENT. About MUSIC or inner nerd?

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Digital was originally sold as the "convenient" medium, among other things. But look around at what's available in the market, and it is a FUGLY morass. Talk to a dozen guys and get a factorial of several dozen of suggestions.

Even a TAS writer got confused and had to write an apology:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/comparing-sacd-to-a-dsd-download-a-follow-up-report/


Windows vs. Apple? River vs. Itunes vs. proprietary? SPDIF vs USB? DSD vs PCM? Upsample to how many times of DSD? Meaningless buzzword vs. Marketing Buzzword? Etc....

What sounds like MUSIC vs. a 10 digit-priced, highly resolved digital robot?

And as soon as you settle on something, things change!!! Buzzword A is so much better than Fuzzword B ....

So is Computer Audio just for bored computer nerds who like to play around with settings and rip files? Personally I want to just kick back and listen to music!


Seems like dropping the needle in the groove or popping a cd into the transport is much more convenient and musically satisfying. Is this really about the music or letting our bored, inner nerd play around?

How do you separate the engineers who deliver analytic sound from the "Golden Ears"? How do you know the engineer is correct? How do you know the "Golden Ear" is not selling you something?

Who do you trust with understanding the options so you can make the right choice? Or do you just not bother at all, like me?
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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Computer audio has little appeal to me.

Just give me the damn disks and I'm happy.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Where to begin? Digital still is a convenient medium. Computer audio made digital way more convenient than a single CD player ever could and more convenient than any form of analog. You are confusing the issue unnecessarily by throwing some red herrings into the picture. Whether you use Apple or Windows really doesn't matter. Jriver compared to Itunes is a nonstarter if you plan on listening to hi-rez digital at least for the here and now.

You simply aren't asking the right questions or you are deliberately trying to steer your argument dressed as a series of questions into a blind alley. It takes some time and trouble to setup a music server and have it communicate with your DAC, but once you have accomplished that, your work is basically over and you can sit back in your listening chair and hear digital at it's highest level of audio quality. If you had a catheter and a beer IV hooked up, you wouldn't have to get out of your chair except to stave off bed sores. I don't know how it could become any more convenient than that.

Dropping a needle into a groove is never going to be more convenient than sitting on your butt with an iPad controlling thousands of different songs and digital formats. Notice I'm not talking sound quality differences here, just strictly convenience which is why I find some of your statements ludicrous.

You don't have to invest much money in order to setup a server with a DAC that will allow you to playback virtually any digital file that consumers can get their hands on. You don't have to make a bunch of choices and compromises nor do you need to trust anyone besides your own ears. People that use Apple are people who have already been married to Apple for years. People that use Windows are people who never joined the Apple cult. Again, it really doesn't matter which one you choose. Pick out a DAC, pick out your software program, and you are ready to go.

With digital, change will be your constant companion, but some of it you may not want anyway in terms of format. The electronic building blocks that make up DACs are constantly changing. I have said this before, digital products are measured in dog years with regards to how fast the technology changes.

You just need to ask yourself one simple question: Do you want to invest in a digital server or not?
 

caesar

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May 30, 2010
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Where to begin? Digital still is a convenient medium. Computer audio made digital way more convenient than a single CD player ever could and more convenient than any form of analog. You are confusing the issue unnecessarily by throwing some red herrings into the picture. Whether you use Apple or Windows really doesn't matter. Jriver compared to Itunes is a nonstarter if you plan on listening to hi-rez digital at least for the here and now.

You simply aren't asking the right questions or you are deliberately trying to steer your argument dressed as a series of questions into a blind alley. It takes some time and trouble to setup a music server and have it communicate with your DAC, but once you have accomplished that, your work is basically over and you can sit back in your listening chair and hear digital at it's highest level of audio quality. If you had a catheter and a beer IV hooked up, you wouldn't have to get out of your chair except to stave off bed sores. I don't know how it could become any more convenient than that.

Dropping a needle into a groove is never going to be more convenient than sitting on your butt with an iPad controlling thousands of different songs and digital formats. Notice I'm not talking sound quality differences here, just strictly convenience which is why I find some of your statements ludicrous.

You don't have to invest much money in order to setup a server with a DAC that will allow you to playback virtually any digital file that consumers can get their hands on. You don't have to make a bunch of choices and compromises nor do you need to trust anyone besides your own ears. People that use Apple are people who have already been married to Apple for years. People that use Windows are people who never joined the Apple cult. Again, it really doesn't matter which one you choose. Pick out a DAC, pick out your software program, and you are ready to go.

With digital, change will be your constant companion, but some of it you may not want anyway in terms of format. The electronic building blocks that make up DACs are constantly changing. I have said this before, digital products are measured in dog years with regards to how fast the technology changes.

You just need to ask yourself one simple question: Do you want to invest in a digital server or not?

MEP,

I appreciate your response. But even knowing what questions to ask is a big issue for someone busy and who hasn't gotten past the learning curve that you have. That's why right now I would prefer a regular cd player for digital.

Also, do you have any thoughts on the TAS guy getting confused?
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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MEP,

I appreciate your response. But even knowing what questions to ask is a big issue for someone busy and who hasn't gotten past the learning curve that you have. That's why right now I would prefer a regular cd player for digital.

Also, do you have any thoughts on the TAS guy getting confused?

Yes. First of all, I don't think he was truly confused. I think he didn't do his homework before he wrote his original article and now he is making further proclamations based on his particular setup which others have already ripped him to shreds for.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Caesar-The best advice I can give you is find someone who is willing to come to your house with their digital setup (laptop, DAC, external hard drive) and have them plug it into your reference system and listen to it. Hopefully it will be someone who has a variety of digital files including DSD for you to hear. It shouldn't take you long to decide if that is something you want to explore or if you want to stay stuck in CD/PCM land.
 

Bruce B

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Apr 25, 2010
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Even though I've been involved in digital audio for decades, I still got confused when I tried to set up consumer digital system. No wonder people were pulling their hair out. My digital workstations were simple. Load the file, change the converters to the correct sample rate and just hit record/play. When I tried to set up a couple consumer system to test the files I was sending out for download, it was a nightmare. Remember, USB was never meant to be a pipeline for audio systems. Manufacturers were scrambling to write drivers and the Operating Systems didn't know what to do with them.
I set up 2 systems, Mac and Windows. The Mac system was so easy to set up, even though I'm a Windows guy. I'm like you, I was to just load the files, hit play and not worry about whether I'm using the most up to date software or if I have all my settings optimized!
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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Funny that this comes up, after a few threads declared that audio dealers are "useless" and "dead".

This is situation where a knowledgeable dealer could help. One doesn't NEED to know whether it's Mac or Windows, iTunes or J River, if a package is prepared and hooked up correctly.

Matter of fact, I think a properly setup media server/computer-based system serves an entirely new function, one that young people relate to, which is the "binge" behaviour, where you sample song after song, in quick succession. That's harder to do if you have to shuffle CDs around, and even harder with LPs.

I wouldn't deprive myself of this experience, same as I don't deprive myself of listening to an entire LP when I feel like it, even though I have to do the whole "ritual".

Some people are "afraid" of the whole LP ritual, and some others are afraid of the "computer audio" bit. It's understandable, but it just doesn't have to be this way...


alexandre
 

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
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Digital was originally sold as the "convenient" medium, among other things. But look around at what's available in the market, and it is a FUGLY morass. Talk to a dozen guys and get a factorial of several dozen of suggestions.

Even a TAS writer got confused and had to write an apology:

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/comparing-sacd-to-a-dsd-download-a-follow-up-report/


Windows vs. Apple? River vs. Itunes vs. proprietary? SPDIF vs USB? DSD vs PCM? Upsample to how many times of DSD? Meaningless buzzword vs. Marketing Buzzword? Etc....

What sounds like MUSIC vs. a 10 digit-priced, highly resolved digital robot?

And as soon as you settle on something, things change!!! Buzzword A is so much better than Fuzzword B ....

So is Computer Audio just for bored computer nerds who like to play around with settings and rip files? Personally I want to just kick back and listen to music!


Seems like dropping the needle in the groove or popping a cd into the transport is much more convenient and musically satisfying. Is this really about the music or letting our bored, inner nerd play around?

How do you separate the engineers who deliver analytic sound from the "Golden Ears"? How do you know the engineer is correct? How do you know the "Golden Ear" is not selling you something?

Who do you trust with understanding the options so you can make the right choice? Or do you just not bother at all, like me?

When I acquire a new CD, I slip it into the slot, point to and click two virtual buttons (one closes a dialog box and the other says "burn"), and the software rips it to my hard drive, error-correcting as it goes. It automatically ejects the disc when it's done. Then the artist, the album and the individual songs are all searchable by keyword, compilations are compilable by dragging and dropping, global, artist and genre random play are available with a click... What's inconvenient about that?

It's not complicated either, though I have no doubt that some high-end audiophies can complicate it beyond belief and wring their hands and empty their wallets endlessly over noise and distortion possibilities. If you're in that camp, I'd recommend you stick with your records (they have more noise and distortion, but it's the noise and distortion you know and love). Records may offer a more limited catalog, but CDs and transports can suffer from all the same problems, real and imaginary, that hard drives can, and a few more. They won't soothe you.

Now, if your problem is the inconvenience of the time and effort to initially rip your collection (or the part of it you listen to most) to a hard drive, that's another problem. One hired out for less than some of you guys pay for a power supply.

Tim
 

rockitman

Member Sponsor
Sep 20, 2011
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Complicated and I will add tedious, especially if your files are on disk and you need to rip and meta date, type in songs names for live music, ect. Not worth it if you only listen to digital part time, IMO.
 

Vincent Kars

WBF Technical Expert: Computer Audio
Jul 1, 2010
860
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My digital workstations were simple. Load the file, change the converters to the correct sample rate and just hit record/play.

My PC switches sample rates automatically :)

Remember, USB was never meant to be a pipeline for audio systems.
Hum, audio is part of the USB standard from 1998 on.

Complicated?
Wonder how the average consumer will deal with this

Banner_KeyFeatures.jpg
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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When I acquire a new CD, I slip it into the slot, point to and click two virtual buttons (one closes a dialog box and the other says "burn"), and the software rips it to my hard drive, error-correcting as it goes. It automatically ejects the disc when it's done. Then the artist, the album and the individual songs are all searchable by keyword, compilations are compilable by dragging and dropping, global, artist and genre random play are available with a click... What's inconvenient about that?

It's not complicated either, though I have no doubt that some high-end audiophies can complicate it beyond belief and wring their hands and empty their wallets endlessly over noise and distortion possibilities. If you're in that camp, I'd recommend you stick with your records (they have more noise and distortion, but it's the noise and distortion you know and love). Records may offer a more limited catalog, but CDs and transports can suffer from all the same problems, real and imaginary, that hard drives can, and a few more. They won't soothe you.

Now, if your problem is the inconvenience of the time and effort to initially rip your collection (or the part of it you listen to most) to a hard drive, that's another problem. One hired out for less than some of you guys pay for a power supply.

Tim

+1

And the ripping which some seem to loath is an incredibly painless process. it takes about 10 minutes per CD. As for the metadata they are usually easily found , automatically while you're ripping, . And if you aren't about ripping them yourself there are services to do just that: You mail them your CDs, they send you back your CDs and an HDD properly ripped and with the correct metadata and that for a few hundred dollars for even the largest CD collection ... An amount most on this board have spent for more dubious services, components or products.Of course there are subtleties to be learned none more complicated than setting up a TT; that particular process has taken years to learn and master and now for most it is painless and self-evident... Learning curve is about the same, that is, medium difficult.
Once this is understood and mastered. the fun starts:Listening to music is so convenient many wonder how they could have gone without that... If one has taken some time to properly catalog/classify their collection then it is an incredibly easy process to find a piece and listen to it as for sound... same as for anything audiophile. We spend our entire lives pulling our ( if we were to look at the demographic, we would say , mostly gray or graying ) hair about: it could be better, same, different, depends on the USB cables or the metal the USB jack is made of , or the temperature at which it was soldered IOW nothing the audiophile is not used to: That is finding difference of sound once any parameter has changed ... I would however say that for the most part music servers, even those made from a consumer-grade middle of the road laptop, are at least equivalent to the best transports and most often utterly superior to those. And that for a fraction of the price, my reference transport was back in the days an around $20K component. Now a <$2000 PC does a better jobs and hold all my over 3000 CD collection which is backed by the way in two other office locations... all that for less than $500 hardware and software (free) combined ...

You knew it the second you became an audiophile: No pain no gain. Computer Audio is no different
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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I don't know what kind of software you guys are using, but I put in the disc, it rips, adds the metadata, categorizes the files (every once in a great while I disagree and change something). I type nothing. I search for no metadata. Nothing is required of me except to wait 10 minutes while the software does the work, then listnen to the music.

Like I said, you can make it incredibly complicated if you want to.

Tim
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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MEP,

I appreciate your response. But even knowing what questions to ask is a big issue for someone busy and who hasn't gotten past the learning curve that you have. That's why right now I would prefer a regular cd player for digital...

+1. totally no idea...I originally bought my DAC 7 years ago to do a server when everyone thought I was nuts...but when I realized how much was involved (which hard drive, hooking up an automatic raid or redundant drive, a server, an interface, you have to hook it up to internet just to get the names of the songs/artists, otherwise its all blank?, plus music playing/copying software, what kind of rip rate or whatever, there is XACT copy or something that is a better rip but it takes longer to do...I realized it was not for me for now.)

Honestly, the Meridian Sooloos is crazy expensive but is probably meant for dummies like me.
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
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Gentlemen, great stuff.

Did anyone buy a Playstation to rip their SACD's? And what about the DVD-A's?
 

caesar

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2010
4,290
767
1,698
I don't know what kind of software you guys are using, but I put in the disc, it rips, adds the metadata, categorizes the files (every once in a great while I disagree and change something). I type nothing. I search for no metadata. Nothing is required of me except to wait 10 minutes while the software does the work, then listnen to the music.

Like I said, you can make it incredibly complicated if you want to.

Tim

I put a disc into a music server, that will go un-named, and it ripped it alright, but it came out with bass that was fat and one-note.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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+1. totally no idea...I originally bought my DAC 7 years ago to do a server when everyone thought I was nuts...but when I realized how much was involved (which hard drive, hooking up an automatic raid or redundant drive, a server, an interface, you have to hook it up to internet just to get the names of the songs/artists, otherwise its all blank?, plus music playing/copying software, what kind of rip rate or whatever, there is XACT copy or something that is a better rip but it takes longer to do...I realized it was not for me for now.)

Honestly, the Meridian Sooloos is crazy expensive but is probably meant for dummies like me.

I agree with your assessment. You would drive yourself crazy fretting over every little thing. Think of how many hours you would spend just figuring out where on the laptop you would stick weights, Stillpoints, and other do-dads.

The real truth of the matter is that a server should be right up your alley. You are in head-over-heels in love with RBCD. You own a large collection that you now have to play one disc at a time. You can't create playlists or just sit in your chair with an iPad and thumb through your entire collection and select songs on the fly. This should be a no-brainer for someone like you. Instead, you are stuck living in the digital stone age.
 

mep

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I put a disc into a music server, that will go un-named, and it ripped it alright, but it came out with bass that was fat and one-note.

How do you know it wasn't the system that had fat one-note bass?? Trust me, it wasn't because the server changed your digits around.
 

mojave

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Oct 29, 2010
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I agree with Tim. It can be extremely simple. My 5, 9, and 13 year old can turn on the HTPC, DAC, and amps and listen to music or watch movies. I can check on my Android phone from anywhere to see what is playing in any of my zones. I have two drives at work and it takes less than 5 minutes to rip a CD per drive. I've ripped 200+ in one day while working on other stuff.

There are about 14 methods of connecting to a DAC so I can see how it can be confusing. Then you also have the variations on methods like this with USB:
  • Adaptive USB
  • Asyncronous USB
  • Asyncronous USB with PCIe USB card
  • Asyncronous USB with PCIe USB card and separate power supply for USB card
  • Asyncronous USB with PCIe USB card and battery power supply for USB card
  • Asynronous USB with PCIe USB card and battery power supply for USB card with power switched off for the USB cable
  • Asynronous USB with PCIe USB card and battery power supply for USB card with power switched off for the USB cable outputting to a Asynchronous USB Converter outputting AES or S/PDIF
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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I put a disc into a music server, that will go un-named, and it ripped it alright, but it came out with bass that was fat and one-note.

Was this a dedicated server with it's own DAC and a DAC with it's own analog pre? Otherwise, I can't imagine how that's possible.

Tim
 

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