Tripoint Audio - new top model grounding device

If u are dazzled by the price of Tripoint emperor wait till u hear about the Dalby ground cable retailing for HK112k ie usd14-15k!!!! Omg it's crazy . If u have not heard it u will thk it's crazy but it's THAT GREAT

audioblazer said:

If u are dazzled by the price of Tripoint emperor wait till u hear about the Dalby ground cable retailing for HK112k ie usd14-15k!!!! Omg it's crazy . If u have not heard it u will thk it's crazy but it's THAT GREAT

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Not "dazzled" audioblazer , just amused. This will never end and to me it is a death spiral. There is no doubt some are profiting from such items ..The case of making progress in the Art and Science of music reproduction by electronics means will not advance one iota though. On that side and coming from an enthusiast, this is sad.

I am still waiting for the $100K speaker cable .. Any progress?

FrantzM said:

Not "dazzled" audioblazer , just amused. This will never end and to me it is a death spiral. There is no doubt some are profiting from such items ..The case of making progress in the Art and Science of music reproduction by electronics means will not advance one iota though. On that side and coming from an enthusiast, this is sad.

I am still waiting for the $100K speaker cable .. Any progress?

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I still can't wrap my logical head around the fact that these ridiculously priced grounding cables could sound any better than their entry line ground cables...after all there is no audio signal carried. One could use the power cord argument that does not carry an audio signal and I do hear the differences between competing brands....but this is a passive ground setup, no juice being carried. Maybe sometime I will try out the tripoint kool-aid...I may like it. The ridiculous price of the cables for the unit has been a real put off for me, not that I have anything against expensive cabling that actually carries the audio.

FrantzM said:

Hum .. Roger ...

The Emperor seems to cost $70,000 or am I wrong?

I have been involved in Grounding and it is an important aspect often neglected. The techniques to achieve good grounding are relatively well known but often difficult to implement. The thing is if one is willing to invest in a serious power plant for the most superlative Audio system, this would not cost $70K for the most pristine power source you could find for your audio system , that with isolation transformer, special 4-wire ..wiring.. Superb Outlets ,even if one commits an act of folly and goes to the "Audiophile" outlets, you know, those that are frozen ..err.. cryo-treated .. etc. You could with that price invest in a solar array to power the system and your house on top of that.

I will bow out but had to post this. This lack of criticism toward those products doesn't IMO, advance High End Audio, they just continue/encourage its transformation into a Luxury Goods market/outlet.

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In common with Spirit of Music I have no quarrel with those who wish to spend $70,000 plus on an Emperor but I do wonder why it could possibly be so expensive to make and market. I am reminded of the old fable of the little boy and the King with no clothes on.

I have heard the base Tripoint with a Koda preamp, Aesthetix amp, EMM Labs CD player and Kharma speakers. I have two Silver Tellus and Atlantis boxes, Apollo i/cs, one Atlantis earth and silver earths plus Entreq power and speaker cables. I am therefore a complete convert to earthing accessories and the improvements to the sound of my system have been tremendous, but I really struggle to believe that a Tripoint Emperor is really a cost effective alternative to the Entreq range and I fear that others with less resources may be put off the Entreq range in the mistaken belief that it cannot be very good if it is so much more affordable.
No beef with those who can and choose to buy it but for those who can't do try the Entreq range because it really does improve sound quality substantially and very cost effectively. And even more so when used in conjunction with Stillpoints.

FrantzM said:

Hum .. Roger ...

The Emperor seems to cost $70,000 or am I wrong?

I have been involved in Grounding and it is an important aspect often neglected. The techniques to achieve good grounding are relatively well known but often difficult to implement. The thing is if one is willing to invest in a serious power plant for the most superlative Audio system, this would not cost $70K for the most pristine power source you could find for your audio system , that with isolation transformer, special 4-wire ..wiring.. Superb Outlets ,even if one commits an act of folly and goes to the "Audiophile" outlets, you know, those that are frozen ..err.. cryo-treated .. etc. You could with that price invest in a solar array to power the system and your house on top of that.

I will bow out but had to post this. This lack of criticism toward those products doesn't IMO, advance High End Audio, they just continue/encourage its transformation into a Luxury Goods market/outlet.

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70,000.00 dollars is a lot of money for such old technology. Yes,this grounding method goes back to the 1930's. The best recording engineers...this was standard practice and that is one of the reasons Mercury living presence and RCA living stereo recordings sound so good today.

There are markers that distinguish low EMI systems....
Great clarity
Uncongestion to a great degeee
Holographic presentation

and with these markers bring other attributes. I am talking about complex recordings,not just a single voice or a quartet,but a full orchestra or a 30 person choir.
Sometimes old ideas are clothed in new ways not easily understood or seen. If 70k is a drop in the bucket be my guest, but understand that you are probably buying limitatations,as noise reduction(EMI) follows a simple principle,not dependent on the amount of special material or conductor.

To FrantzM:

A few questions on my part after your (predictable) reaction:
- have you heard any of the Tripoint products?
- do you have any idea about the actual techniques Tripoint is using?
- do you have any idea how much time it takes to produce an emperor?
- do you have any idea about the actual material costs involved in creating the emperor?
- do you have any idea about research and development costs involved?

I suppose the answer to most (if not all) of these questions will be no. If that is indeed the case, don't you think it is time to do some research (including listening) on your part before exchanging your outspoken opinions in this regard?

What is the difference between the Emperor Ground and Emperor AC ?

Will come back later to your question. Not able to answer right now as I am in meetings part of the day.

Barry2013 said:

In common with Spirit of Music I have no quarrel with those who wish to spend $70,000 plus on an Emperor but I do wonder why it could possibly be so expensive to make and market. ...I have two Silver Tellus and Atlantis boxes, Apollo i/cs, one Atlantis earth and silver earths plus Entreq power and speaker cables. I am therefore a complete convert to earthing accessories and the improvements to the sound of my system have been tremendous, but I really struggle to believe that a Tripoint Emperor is really a cost effective alternative to the Entreq range and I fear that others with less resources may be put off the Entreq range in the mistaken belief that it cannot be very good if it is so much more affordable.
No beef with those who can and choose to buy it but for those who can't do try the Entreq range because it really does improve sound quality substantially and very cost effectively. And even more so when used in conjunction with Stillpoints.

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A few points to the recent posts which I can sense are approaching that nexus of acrimony.

1. I agree with Barry2013, SpiritofMusic and Audiocrack about the benefits that these grounding units bring. I have spoken personally with around 10 owners of these units...some of whom actually PMd before auditioning (and buying) them...and none of them are aware of anyone who auditioned one who did not keep it. If I may say, it has a Stillpoints-like effect...once people auditioned, they have a very strong tendency to keep them.

I genuinely believe they work, and I even sense those here who know grounding 'science' would concur that if designed right, they do have justifiable merit in an audio system.

We'll get to costs later...

2. In my own system, I have a Tripoint Troy SE which comes with 4 standard Tripoint grounding cables. However, I have found further and further benefits by grounding more...and I have done so with Entreq Atlantis cables...but connected to a different binding post on the back of Tripoint to separate the Tripoint cables from the Entreq ones. Would it be better if I could pony up and buy the Thor SE cables? I am not going there...I am ecstatic about Atlantis, so I don't even think about it except when these kinds of discussions arise about ever-increasing limits.

all I can say is, for whatever reason is that cables do seem to matter. are they doing more than grounding in the traditional sense? someone suggested they might help match impedance levels across multiple components which are all interconnected? heck if I know.

3. I have found that not only do different cable matter, but placement on RCA (grounding 'signal' directly) vs chassis screw (grounding chassis), also matters.

Further, I have found that if you connect Entreq and Tripoint cables on same binding post...you get a smearing which makes things worse. But separate them on different binding posts, and it works really well. So for me all this little stuff does matter.

I am NOT trying to play scientist and say 'I did this scientifically, I heard it...ergo, the science must be there' or any such notion. I am only sharing my own experiences.

4. As for cost...my own experiments were that the quality of the grounding cable matters more than the size of the box...when I tried a single Silver Tellus box, I realized if I had to choose between either paying for an upgraded cable or paying for an extra box, i would rather go for the upgraded cable.

Now, if you get BOTH upgraded box PLUS upgraded cable (like Barry2013 has)...then you get the most of ALL benefits. But I really heard the uplift with the bigger box ONLY after I had the better cables. Otherwise, I have generally recommended to people who have asked me...just get the smaller box and be done...and if you wish to upgrade slowly, get the better cables next.

So while more does seem to be better so far...its not all equal in its improvements...

5. One of the reasons I went with Troy SE at the time was because its single box was 2x the size of the Entreq Silver Tellus alone, and I realized with the better cables that the 2x box size did make an improvement.

6. Coming to Emperor (and cost), this is literally 4x the size of the Troy (300lbs?) and can connect 40+ grounding cables or something (instead of 9). I know owners of 2 Troys who have run out of space on the back of the binding posts. (On mine, I admit I am really pushing it at 14 connections when its supposed to be 9.) There are also owners who have Tripoint across all the chassis connections and instead of getting another Troy, have gone with Entreq to ground all the signal connections.

So it seems those who like grounding, REALLY like it. Again, I have 14 connections on the back of my 1 Troy. And each time I connect something, the noise continues to drop, the nuances start to increase, the details emerge, and all the rest of it.

7. NO...I am going to get any more Tripoint Troys, Entreq boxes...I have reached my own limit.

8. But I also know that if someone plunked down an Emperor for my Troy and said 'even trade'...I would take it!...AND almost certainly start looking at further possibilities for grounding.

10. NO...I have not always found benefit in grounding this or that...but I recently went from 8 to 14 grounding points for the Troy...this was due to using a prototype product for grounding which I was allowed to trial and have since bought several which went into production recently.

I will post about it as soon as I am able. But it is about further grounding, it is great, and it has continued to impress (me) that this whole grounding thing is a highly beneficial move for which I have personally found no other way to replicate through mechanical isolation, power conditioning or other forms of improvements I have been able to try in my system. I would say on this last observation, it concurs with most of the owners of these units with whom I have spoken directly...what it does is different than mechanical isolation, mass damping, new tubes, even power conditioning.

This new product i am trying feels like it acts like a drain, where it attaches to a component...does whatever it does...and drains excess distortion (rfi, emi, etc) down to the main grounding box...leaving the unit with more natural, pure tonal qualities. its quite cool, and I have just agreed to get 1 more...so 5 total.

11. So if you really like what grounding does, I would believe the 4-5x increase in capacity would benefit systems. And yup, it costs 4x more.

12. Do I think this product may have a diminishing return effect relative to buying, say, 2 Troys? Probably...but that's just nature of all things at the uber high end. The guy who buys 2 Troys and then figures, its a pain to have 2 boxes, i'm running out of capacity...get the bigger one and be done. Within perhaps different financial limitations, how many of us have probably done that at some point? I have. And I have never regretted it. (Nope, I am not getting the Emperor!)

My own two cents. Back to Audiocrack - when you get it, I look forward to your observations, but I have spoken with 2 people who have heard it, 1 of whom owns Troy SE, and they were very impressed by its improvements.

^^^^

Terrific post. Very educational. This one should be archived.

Thank you.

LL21 said:

A few points to the recent posts which I can sense are approaching that nexus of acrimony.

1. I agree with Barry2013, SpiritofMusic and Audiocrack about the benefits that these grounding units bring. I have spoken personally with around 10 owners of these units...some of whom actually PMd before auditioning (and buying) them...and none of them are aware of anyone who auditioned one who did not keep it. If I may say, it has a Stillpoints-like effect...once people auditioned, they have a very strong tendency to keep them.

I genuinely believe they work, and I even sense those here who know grounding 'science' would concur that if designed right, they do have justifiable merit in an audio system.

We'll get to costs later...

2. In my own system, I have a Tripoint Troy SE which comes with 4 standard Tripoint grounding cables. However, I have found further and further benefits by grounding more...and I have done so with Entreq Atlantis cables...but connected to a different binding post on the back of Tripoint to separate the Tripoint cables from the Entreq ones. Would it be better if I could pony up and buy the Thor SE cables? I am not going there...I am ecstatic about Atlantis, so I don't even think about it except when these kinds of discussions arise about ever-increasing limits.

all I can say is, for whatever reason is that cables do seem to matter. are they doing more than grounding in the traditional sense? someone suggested they might help match impedance levels across multiple components which are all interconnected? heck if I know.

3. I have found that not only do different cable matter, but placement on RCA (grounding 'signal' directly) vs chassis screw (grounding chassis), also matters.

Further, I have found that if you connect Entreq and Tripoint cables on same binding post...you get a smearing which makes things worse. But separate them on different binding posts, and it works really well. So for me all this little stuff does matter.

I am NOT trying to play scientist and say 'the science must there' or any such notion. I am only sharing my own experiences.

4. As for cost...my own experiments were that the quality of the grounding cable matters more than the size of the box...when I tried a single Silver Tellus box, I realized if I had to choose between either paying for an upgraded cable or paying for an extra box, i would rather go for the upgraded cable.

Now, if you get BOTH upgraded box PLUS upgraded cable (like Barry2013 has)...then you get the most of ALL benefits. But I really heard the uplift with the bigger box ONLY after I had the better cables. Otherwise, I have generally recommended to people who have asked me...just get the smaller box and be done...and if you wish to upgrade slowly, get the better cables next.

So while more does seem to be better so far...its not all equal in its improvements...

5. One of the reasons I went with Troy SE at the time was because its single box was 2x the size of the Entreq Silver Tellus alone, and I realized with the better cables that the 2x box size did make an improvement.

6. Coming to Emperor (and cost), this is literally 4x the size of the Troy (300lbs?) and can connect 40+ grounding cables or something (instead of 9). I know owners of 2 Troys who have run out of space on the back of the binding posts. (On mine, I admit I am really pushing it at 13 connections when its supposed to be 9.) There are also owners who have Tripoint across all the chassis connections and instead of getting another Troy, have gone with Entreq to ground all the signal connections.

So it seems those who like grounding, REALLY like it. Again, I have 13 connections on the back of my 1 Troy. And each time I connect something, the noise continues to drop, the nuances start to increase, the details emerge, and all the rest of it.

7. NO...I am going to get any more Tripoint Troys, Entreq boxes...I have reached my own limit.

8. But I also know that if someone plunked down an Emperor for my Troy and said 'even trade'...I would take it!...AND almost certainly start looking at further possibilities for grounding.

10. NO...I have not always found benefit in grounding this or that...but I recently went from 8 to 13-14 grounding points for the Troy...this was due to using a prototype product for grounding which I was allowed to trial and have since bought several which went into production recently.

I will post about it as soon as I am able. But it is about further grounding, it is great, and it has continued to impress (me) that this whole grounding thing is a highly beneficial move for which I have personally found no other way to replicate through mechanical isolation, power conditioning or other forms of improvements I have been able to try in my system. I would say on this last observation, it concurs with most of the owners of these units with whom I have spoken directly.

11. So if you really like what grounding does, I would believe the 4-5x increase in capacity would benefit systems. And yup, it costs 4x more.

12. Do I think this product may have a diminishing return effect relative to buying, say, 2 Troys? Probably...but that's just nature of all things at the uber high end. The guy who buys 2 Troys and then figures, its a pain to have 2 boxes, i'm running out of capacity...get the bigger one and be done. Within perhaps different financial limitations, how many of us have probably done that at some point? I have. And I have never regretted it. (Nope, I am not getting the Emperor!)

My own two cents. Back to Audiocrack - when you get it, I look forward to your observations, but I have spoken with 2 people who have heard it, 1 of whom owns Troy SE, and they were very impressed by its improvements.

Click to expand...

Very basic principles here at work.

The size of the sink does not matter especially when the unit is grounded. The number of cables will improve EMI reduction,but a larger cable will trump quantity. If you increase the size of the cable and that is all that needs to be done,more EMI will be pulled away from the target component. EMI cannot penetrate ferrous metal,so it migrates a long the surface of the metal enclosure. If you create a pathway,the EMI will take the path created back to ground. It is my experience that EMI reduction will reset system resistance and many benefits of this can be heard. By using VU meters this improvement in system resistance can be clearly seen. This is the same principle of all high end cables and that is why cables sound different. It is also why synergies are created with different equipment matchings.

RogerD said:

Very basic principles here at work.

The size of the sink does not matter especially when the unit is grounded. The number of cables will improve EMI reduction,but a larger cable will trump quantity. If you increase the size of the cable and that is all that needs to be done,more EMI will be pulled away from the target component. EMI cannot penetrate ferrous metal,so it migrates a long the surface of the metal enclosure. If you create a pathway,the EMI will take the path created back to ground. It is my experience that EMI reduction will reset system resistance and many benefits of this can be heard. By using VU meters this improvement in system resistance can be clearly seen. This is the same principle of all high end cables and that is why cables sound different. It is also why synergies are created with different equipment matchings.

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Thank you! Always a benefit to have the technical expertise weighing in here. Appreciate the explanations...I have learned something today.

LL21 said:

4. As for cost...my own experiments were that the quality of the grounding cable matters more than the size of the box...when I tried a single Silver Tellus box, I realized if I had to choose between either paying for an upgraded cable or paying for an extra box, i would rather go for the upgraded cable.

Now, if you get BOTH upgraded box PLUS upgraded cable (like Barry2013 has)...then you get the most of ALL benefits. But I really heard the uplift with the bigger box ONLY after I had the better cables. Otherwise, I have generally recommended to people who have asked me...just get the smaller box and be done...and if you wish to upgrade slowly, get the better cables next.

So while more does seem to be better so far...its not all equal in its improvements...

Click to expand...

If your expeimenting with cables you might try a flat insulated braid type. If you can terminate it to fit,it should work well.

http://www.lowcostcontrols.com/insulated-flat-tinned-copper-braids-(ftcbi)-c-194_734_740.html

http://www.lowcostcontrols.com/manudc/Erico Catalog.pdf

RogerD said:

If your expeimenting with cables you might try a flat insulated braid type. If you can terminate it to fit,it should work well.

http://www.lowcostcontrols.com/insulated-flat-tinned-copper-braids-(ftcbi)-c-194_734_740.html

http://www.lowcostcontrols.com/manudc/Erico Catalog.pdf

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Thank you! In a [good] way I have run out of space on my Tripoint...14 connections where it is ideally for 9. Nevertheless, your link is a good one to have, and I will look further into it.

LL21 said:

Thank you! In a [good] way I have run out of space on my Tripoint...14 connections where it is ideally for 9. Nevertheless, your link is a good one to have, and I will look further into it.

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The Tripoint design is good. I think it would be great if you could fully maximise it's potential. I would concentrate on the preamp,amplifiers and source connections,those are the most important. Flat braid is the design of choice because of it's surface area. If you have a RTR with VU meters,watch them when you change your cables. The signal should show less deflection at first and as the resistance normalises(gain) the meter deflection should increase. When you are at maximum your amplfiers should run quieter,the transformers like less EMI. Breaking the noise barrier in a system is probably the best thing you can do for sound quality....it effects everything in the system chain.

RogerD said:

The Tripoint design is good. I think it would be great if you could fully maximise it's potential. I would concentrate on the preamp,amplifiers and source connections,those are the most important. Flat braid is the design of choice because of it's surface area. If you have a RTR with VU meters,watch them when you change your cables. The signal should show less deflection at first and as the resistance normalises(gain) the meter deflection should increase. When you are at maximum your amplfiers should run quieter,the transformers like less EMI. Breaking the noise barrier in a system is probably the best thing you can do for sound quality....it effects everything in the system chain.

Click to expand...

Thank you! I have connected to all 4 Zanden boxes, the preamp, amp...both 'signal' and 'chassis'. Compared to having without...I cannot go back, even one, let alone all of the cables. And yes, between mechanical isolation from floor and mass damping on top, emi/rfi shielding around power cables (another Entreq product), this grounding has just continued to lower the noise floor beyond what I thought I was possible...well beyond. Thanks again for your advice...much appreciated.

Elberoth said:

What is the difference between the Emperor Ground and Emperor AC ?

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The Tripoint emperor ground is a further development of the technigues being used in the Tripoint Troy signature for grounding hifi components. It is a statement product: see the latest comments on the AE forum of visitors from outside the Hong Kong community and how impressed they are when listening with and without the emperor connected. The emperor ac is purely ac and has nothing to do with grounding. According to Miguel the two of them are a formidable combination bringing out the best in eachother. Miguel is very communicative so please contact him if you want some more (technical) background.

Here is the quote I was just referring to": "One particular component stood out prominently...the Tripoint Emperor. An amazing component and a must-have for all highend systems. When Chris disconnected it, it was just unlistenable in comparison. Without thus grounding system, we are just hearing noise!".

Agree w/Lloyd LL21, and Audiocrack, that it's impossible to go back once you've experienced effective grounding. It brings a sort of still clarity to music that enables you to get the message in the music all the more effectively, and is the complement to balanced power that was the start of my journey into noise reduction.
This grounding/balanced power journey in my case is likely to end in an expenditure of a third of the capital cost of the components in my system, and I still favour the Entreq approach since it has a more modular, incremental upgradability path than Tripoint which is pretty much expenditure all in one go. I'll be going: from Apollo to Atlantis cables, from Silver Tellus to add on Atlantis box, from Powerus distribution box to add on Cleanus box. And Lloyd indicates there may be more add ons in due course.
I guess if you want an uber solution and can afford to shell out in one go, Emperor would be the way, but in reality how many of us can do? I actually find the Entreq approach more fun, I can look fwd to a little fix every few months, great since I'm pretty much at the end of my component upgrade path. Likely to spend about a third on the Entreq grounding process than Troy Emperor.
But I don't doubt Emperor is phenomenal.

spiritofmusic said:

Agree w/Lloyd LL21, and Audiocrack, that it's impossible to go back once you've experienced effective grounding. It brings a sort of still clarity to music that enables you to get the message in the music all the more effectively, and is the complement to balanced power that was the start of my journey into noise reduction....I'll be going: from Apollo to Atlantis cables, from Silver Tellus to add on Atlantis box, from Powerus distribution box to add on Cleanus box. And Lloyd indicates there may be more add ons in due course...

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Having compared in my system the upgrades you are contemplating, I will say those all sound like great moves. In order, I would say upgrade cables before the bigger Atlantis box...but as for Cleanus vs Atlantis box, a tough one. You might try Entreq wraps for a much smaller 'fix'...I ended up with about 13 of them, and they really, really work nicely. Just wrap around the AC as it comes out of or into an inlet. I was really not expecting any change...the distributor left them with me to try because I was contemplating the Zanden cables for my Zanden set which apparently have greater emi/rfi rejection capability.

I tried them briefly fri nite...nothing...yup, just what I thought. Stick em back in the bag for Monday. After 20 minutes, I thought, try it again...don't waste people's time when they offer to let you have stuff to audition for the weekend. Bingo...one weekend later and 13 wraps. Jeez, they really work.