Andre Jennings and the Latest Edition of TAS

mep · Jun 5, 2014

I just received my copy of the July/Aug 2014 TAS and JV wrote an article about cartridge setup the "Andre Jennings Way." It was a very good article and detailed the methodical method that Andre uses to optimize the geometry of all cartridges that he installs. We are lucky to have someone of Andre's caliber and skill level on WBF that we can actually ask questions about the proper way to setup a cartridge. Andre also happens to be a super nice guy and some of our forum members have had a chance to meet Andre during the WBF dinners held every year during the RMAF.

If I ever get Andre to come to my house (and I do plan on visiting him soon), I would probably be embarrassed at how far my cartridge alignment would be off from where he would adjust it to. I simply don't have the tools that Andre has nor the knowledge on how to use the tools/software that he has. The scary thing is thinking there is more there to be had!

BruceD · Jun 5, 2014

Yes the Andre Jennings method with the USB Microscope is indeed excellent if frustrating for those of us with 10 thumbs!

I have the Dinolite and studied both his method and the Fremer version on Analog Planet-- Tried both with fair degree of precision and success--note care must be exercised which method you choose as the Stylus /shape/configuration

measurements differ depending on whose you implement.

BruceD

rockitman · Jun 5, 2014

There is no magic to cart install/alignment. Pretty straight forward if you ask me. Now if you are talking about optimizing azimuth and anti-skate then it could be tricky I suppose. I really don't see what the big deal is to set spindle to pivot, overhang and zenith angle...the meat and potatoes of cart setup. I get a chuckle when someone spends hours on getting the perfect Mint LP alignment only to realize perhaps later that there will be cantilever deflection anyway, unless you have anti-skate set just exactly perfectly. If your overhang is correct along with zenith, your in great shape. I firmly believe there is more error tolerance in setup that won't affect sound quality than most people think.

Peter Breuninger · Jun 5, 2014

rockitman said:
There is no magic to cart install/alignment. Pretty straight forward if you ask me. Now if you are talking about optimizing azimuth and anti-skate then it could be tricky I suppose. I really don't see what the big deal is to set spindle to pivot, overhang and zenith angle...the meat and potatoes of cart setup. I get a chuckle when someone spends hours on getting the perfect Mint LP alignment only to realize perhaps later that there will be cantilever deflection anyway, unless you have anti-skate set just exactly perfectly. If your overhang is correct along with zenith, your in great shape. I firmly believe there is more error tolerance in setup that won't affect sound quality than most people think.

I agree. I've been setting up tables for 50 years and I am 58 years old. It's not the rocket science some make it out to be.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 5, 2014

no one sets up more cartridges that a tonearm designer. over the years i've had the privilidge of observing Joel Durand do many many dozens (maybe many hundreds) of set-ups and also watched his regimin change from time to time in the tools he uses. one constant is the Mint Lp protractor, another is the 'pivot to spindle' tool he provides with his tonearms.

as far as VTA; i have seen him evolve from one approach to another over time. same with azimuth; he has evolved from one approach to another, and then sometimes back again. it seems that he goes with one approach until another one takes him further. his mind is never closed to possibilities or set on dogma. it's always the sound that is the focus and not the process.

and whichever approach taken; some fine-tuning during listening is always needed to really find that last level of performance.

personally the mechanical part of cartridge set-up is not difficult if you spend some time doing it. it may appear to be an intimidating thing but it's not at all. the harder part is having a sonic idea of what you want in the end and having the patience to keep pushing until you are satisfied. and the more you do it, the easier it is and less an issue to worry about.

BruceD · Jun 5, 2014

Yes possibly overwrought Audiophilia has burdened us with some degree of Paranoia--still the search for the Analog Holy Grail has many paths --many a side track to woo us off the basics which we have used for many years previous

not withstanding the variances in Lp thickness,needle drag,motor fluctuations,/etc.etc--frankly my old AR circa 1970 sound bl**dy good!

Re the current idiom for fanatical alignment---What's funny though I set one of my tables up painstakingly with the Fremer method( suited my MC Stylus mounting) and reveled in the 'apparent' improvement

My second TT has no adjustments--apart from VTF and Arm height---the same LP on it sounded better!

No fool like an Audio Phool

BruceD

MylesBAstor · Jun 5, 2014

BruceD said:
Yes the Andre Jennings method with the USB Microscope is indeed excellent if frustrating for those of us with 10 thumbs!

I have the Dinolite and studied both his method and the Fremer version on Analog Planet-- Tried both with fair degree of precision and success--note care must be exercised which method you choose as the Stylus /shape/configuration

measurements differ depending on whose you implement.

BruceD

Yet the ears are the final arbitrator.

How did we ever set up cartridges before and get good sound?

mep · Jun 5, 2014

Some of these comments surprise me a little bit. I have been setting up cartridges my entire adult life and I think I do a good job and get great sound from whatever cartridge I set up. However, I don't think that I have optimized what is possible by using the tools that are available today. Does everyone really think that optimization of all parameters won't actually result in better sound?

Mike Lavigne · Jun 5, 2014

mep said:
Some of these comments surprise me a little bit. I have been setting up cartridges my entire adult life and I think I do a good job and get great sound from whatever cartridge I set up. However, I don't think that I have optimized what is possible by using the tools that are available today. Does everyone really think that optimization of all parameters won't actually result in better sound?

definition of 'optimization'

: an act, process, or methodology of making something (as a design, system, or decision) as fully perfect, functional, or effective as possible; specifically: the mathematical procedures (as finding the maximum of a function) involved in this.

to me the most important part here is 'as possible'.

since many of the parameters of cartridge setup are interactive and dynamic and the media is varible you can only approach perfection. and how we define perfection is subjectively how we percieve the sound and music.

don't worry, be happy.

you have to go beyond dogma and numbers and find the happy place.

puroagave · Jun 5, 2014

I agree with Christian i think the set-up process is over-stated especially if you own a graham, Bob's jig allows you to do it in your sleep - the Mint LP protractor is a waste of money with the phantom, another reason this will be my last arm. I spent nearly an hour in Lloyd Walker's demo last Sunday picking his brain on various aspects of set up and he did a live demo changing vta/sra for 160g - 200g vinyl and the changes were more profound that I imagined, in part b/c while I stayed seated he could demo the change within seconds.

mep · Jun 5, 2014

Mike Lavigne said:
definition of 'optimization'

: an act, process, or methodology of making something (as a design, system, or decision) as fully perfect, functional, or effective as possible; specifically: the mathematical procedures (as finding the maximum of a function) involved in this.

to me the most important part here is 'as possible'.

since many of the parameters of cartridge setup are interactive and dynamic and the media is varible you can only approach perfection. and how we define perfection is subjectively how we percieve the sound and music.

don't worry, be happy.

you have to go beyond dogma and numbers and find the happy place.

So what does this mean? Should you not try and optimize your alignment/setup? Do we really not care if we don't have the best alignment, lowest crosstalk, SRA set as close as possible to 92 degrees (or whatever you think the 'correct SRA is)? I'm confused now as to what people think is "good enough" vice the best that can be achieved with their table/arm/cartridge. Isn't "good enough" the enemy of great? Why aren't we all still using the Dennison protractor and the Shure scale to set up our arms?

Mike Lavigne · Jun 5, 2014

mep said:
So what does this mean? Should you not try and optimize your alignment/setup? Do we really not care if we don't have the best alignment, lowest crosstalk, SRA set as close as possible to 92 degrees (or whatever you think the 'correct SRA is)? I'm confused now as to what people think is "good enough" vice the best that can be achieved with their table/arm/cartridge. Isn't "good enough" the enemy of great? Why aren't we all still using the Dennison protractor and the Shure scale to set up our arms?

no.

it means (1) go ahead and do all the things you can do to the best of your ability, then (2) listen and make any fine tuning adjustments your ears like, then (3) enjoy.

just don't get caught up with numbers over what your ears say. if 92 degrees also sounds best then it's best. if it does not sound best then do what sounds best.

or just do what you like.

the goal is the best sound, not to hit some arbitrary, theoretical number of VTA/SRA.

PeterA · Jun 5, 2014

puroagave said:
I spent nearly an hour in Lloyd Walker's demo last Sunday picking his brain on various aspects of set up and he did a live demo changing vta/sra for 160g - 200g vinyl and the changes were more profound that I imagined, in part b/c while I stayed seated he could demo the change within seconds.

Did Lloyd Walker use the same VTA/SRA for each LP of the same thickness, or did he demonstrate different settings for different LPs of the same thickness? I agree that slight differences can really impact the sound.

JackD201 · Jun 5, 2014

I don't think I would have ever enjoyed analog so much if there weren't wonderful, generous people to teach and guide me when I started and still come over when I can't get things done myself. It's a learning process. Like any, it's great to have teachers.

puroagave · Jun 6, 2014

PeterA said:
Did Lloyd Walker use the same VTA/SRA for each LP of the same thickness, or did he demonstrate different settings for different LPs of the same thickness? I agree that slight differences can really impact the sound.

his 'table was set-up for 200g lPs, w/o changing anything he put on a mid-70s pressing prob ~140g. it was willie, singing amazing grace nothing seemed amiss until he adjusted the pivot point for proper SRA and WOW, three singers that were ill-defined and way behind willie, took several steps forward and you could clearly 'see' their 'heads' just behind his vocal.

rbbert · Jun 6, 2014

puroagave said:
his 'table was set-up for 200g lPs, w/o changing anything he put on a mid-70s pressing prob ~140g. it was willie, singing amazing grace nothing seemed amiss until he adjusted the pivot point for proper SRA and WOW, three singers that were ill-defined and way behind willie, took several steps forward and you could clearly 'see' their 'heads' just behind his vocal.

Each time I visited his room the overall sound was so bad (and this seemed to be a consensus) I'm a little surprised you could evaluate something like this.

rbbert · Jun 6, 2014

MylesBAstor said:
Yet the ears are the final arbitrator. How did we ever set up cartridges before and get good sound?

If you think about it mechanically, it's kind of amazing that LP playback in general produces good sound

BruceD · Jun 6, 2014

rbbert said:
Each time I visited his room the overall sound was so bad (and this seemed to be a consensus) I'm a little surprised you could evaluate something like this.

Yes I agree--strange the room sounded constricted--I found wanting for the sonics to come out from the Speakers--totally underwhelmed with the presentation--surely Mr Walker must have noticed--puzzling

The sum of the Numbers showed the potential--just not the performance

I'm sure greatness would've prevailed in another setting-no?

BruceD

jazdoc · Jun 6, 2014

JackD201 said:
I don't think I would have ever enjoyed analog so much if there weren't wonderful, generous people to teach and guide me when I started and still come over when I can't get things done myself. It's a learning process. Like any, it's great to have teachers.

+1. Andre has forgotten more about vinyl setup than I know.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 6, 2014

BruceD said:
Yes I agree--strange the room sounded constricted--I found wanting for the sonics to come out from the Speakers--totally underwhelmed with the presentation--surely Mr Walker must have noticed--puzzling

The sum of the Numbers showed the potential--just not the performance

I'm sure greatness would've prevailed in another setting-no?

BruceD

+1

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