Anyone seriously audition CAT gear and decide against it? Anyone switch from CAT?

jtinn

Industry Expert
Apr 20, 2010
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JTinn, that depends on whether you are in the ss camp or the tube camp. The Dart's are GREAT ss amps, no doubt; BUT they don't have the same characteristics as the CAT amps...nor do they have quite the macro and micro dynamic shadings as the CAT amps IMO. OTOH, they are probably a LOT easier to live with and maintain than tube amps.
I agree completely with Paul ( Occam), the preamp can be altered to taste, depending on the tube that is 'rolled' in. I also agree with Caesar's OP.

Daveyf, I am confused. I don't believe solid state versus tubes has anything to do with what I posted. What are you addressing that I said in my post?

As far as making this about tubes versus solid state, it is either correct sounding and true to the event, or it is not. Solid state versus tubes is never a realistic comparison to make. Way too much of a generalization.

I have spent a great deal of time with both brands and I have no doubt about my statements. Can you tell me your experience with CAT and darTZeel amplification?
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Daveyf, I am confused. I don't believe solid state versus tubes has anything to do with what I posted. What are you addressing that I said in my post?

As far as making this about tubes versus solid state, it is either correct sounding and true to the event, or it is not. Solid state versus tubes is never a realistic comparison to make. Way too much of a generalization.

I have spent a great deal of time with both brands and I have no doubt about my statements. Can you tell me your experience with CAT and darTZeel amplification?

Shows?
 

Jeffy

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Apr 27, 2014
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Orchard Lake, MI
Of course I tube rolled. Of course it sounds better with New old stock tubes, so does all other preamps I've tried. It was just too foward for my tastes.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Can you tell me your experience with CAT and darTZeel amplification?

My experience??? My experience is that I have heard both...and that "experience" is coming from someone who isn't a dealer for one and not the other. Sorry JTinn, BUT you really left me no choice.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Of course I tube rolled. Of course it sounds better with New old stock tubes, so does all other preamps I've tried. It was just too foward for my tastes.

Jeffy, I think your experience with the CAT preamp may be have been "influenced" by the up front gear and the amp that you utilized with the CAT. The CAT can sound too forward IF the ancillary gear isn't a great match with it.
 

jtinn

Industry Expert
Apr 20, 2010
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My experience??? My experience is that I have heard both...and that "experience" is coming from someone who isn't a dealer for one and not the other. Sorry JTinn, BUT you really left me no choice.

Daveyf, with all respect, why are you avoiding the question? It was meant to understand how you listened to them. If it was at a show or shows, I do not know how you could come to your conclusion with such certainty unless the same speakers and supporting equipment were used as I had done in my listening room. If you had listened to both of them in your listening room or even someone else's, it would be clearer how you came to your conclusion. If you make a statement like you did, you should be able to defend it and not attack me for asking you to do so.

Being a dealer, distributor, manufacturer or owning a particular component has nothing to do with what I said. The original post asked, "Anyone seriously audition CAT gear and decide against it? Anyone switch from CAT?". I stuck to the question and kept it on point. Maybe it would be best for all involved if you do the same.

I was just trying to help Caesar with his question. Hopefully you were as well.

Just to be clear about what I said, should anyone question my statements, there are a few members here who can attest to knowing some customers of mine who have owned CAT and now own darTZeel...

Feel free to verify with Mike Lavigne, Gary Radca and/or Ed Sudario
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Jtinn, I'm not trying to avoid the question. I have listened to the Dart gear at a fellow a'philes home, at shows, and at a demo by one of our a'phile group---along with the Evolution speakers. I also have heard the CAT gear and own the CAT gear.
My "experience" with these pieces is the way I posted. You seem to be "unsettled/upset" by the fact that someone could prefer the sound of the CAT amps to your represented line...the Dartzeel gear.
Your questioning me as to my 'experience' with the gear is therefore at the very least somewhat specious, IMO. The fact that you are a dealer and---correct me IF I am wrong--somewhat shall we say.."biased", seems to me to be an issue here.
I'm done with this now.
 
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jtinn

Industry Expert
Apr 20, 2010
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Jtinn, I'm not trying to avoid the question. I have listened to the Dart gear at a fellow a'philes home, at shows, and at a demo by one of our a'phile group---along with the Evolution speakers. I also have heard the CAT gear and own the CAT gear.
My "experience" with these pieces is the way I posted. You seem to be "unsettled/upset" by the fact that someone could prefer the sound of the CAT amps to your represented line...the Dartzeel gear.

I am not upset at all. You made a statement which I feel is improper and frankly a bit irresponsible to make based on your experiences. That is all.

Your questioning me as to my 'experience' with the gear is therefore at the very least somewhat specious, IMO. The fact that you are a dealer and---correct me IF I am wrong--somewhat shall we say.."biased", seems to me to be an issue here.
I'm done with this now.

How is me asking you about your experience with gear you are talking about misleading? Sure, I truly love the gear I manufacture, carry, and own. If I did not feel strongly about them, I would not be able to be passionate about them. The fact that you are an owner of CAT gear, are you not biased?

Also, to remind you, I never gave my thoughts on how darTZeel compares to the CAT.
 

Jeffy

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Apr 27, 2014
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Davey you may be right the CAT Preamp May be a better match with their amps. I tried the cat with VTL and VAC amps with the same results.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Daveyf, I am confused. I don't believe solid state versus tubes has anything to do with what I posted. What are you addressing that I said in my post?

As far as making this about tubes versus solid state, it is either correct sounding and true to the event, or it is not. Solid state versus tubes is never a realistic comparison to make. Way too much of a generalization.

I have spent a great deal of time with both brands and I have no doubt about my statements. Can you tell me your experience with CAT and darTZeel amplification?

I'm confused too. You asked what I thought was a simple question and did not receive an appropriate answer. We still have no answers as to exactly what model Dart amps Davey compared against what model CAT amps. To my knowledge, Davy does not own any CAT amps, he has an older model CAT Signature MKII preamp. But his statement referred to the superiority of CAT amps when compared to Dart amps. Your question was a fair question to ask, you just didn't receive the answer I felt you deserved.
 

jtinn

Industry Expert
Apr 20, 2010
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I'm confused too. You asked what I thought was a simple question and did not receive an appropriate answer. We still have no answers as to exactly what model Dart amps Davey compared against what model CAT amps. To my knowledge, Davy does not own any CAT amps, he has an older model CAT Signature MKII preamp. But his statement referred to the superiority of CAT amps when compared to Dart amps. Your question was a fair question to ask, you just didn't receive the answer I felt you deserved.

+1
 

andromedaaudio

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I still have a cat pre , i bought a 300 B zanden for development / low power speakertesting , Cat /boulder awesome match , i might buy a boulder again as well when speakerdevelopment is over . its top of the line stuff with perfect balance never heard the darts yet unfortunately
 

Occam

[Industry Expert]
Dec 15, 2010
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Well, I've heard heard both amps and preamps from both CAT and DartZeel and can definitively say dunno....
This is really like an argument over who is the 'better' superhero, Captain America or Batman.
If I was considering Playback Design digital equipment, I'd definitely consider the DartZeel preamp as it shares the common 50 Ohm interface, and if I considered a preamp, I'd certainly put the DartZeel poweramp because of the advantages offered by the same interface. Its absurd to consider any component in isolation, simply because nothing operates in isolation. I'm certainly not suggesting that the DartZeel's excellence is limited to situations where operating with other kit sharing that specific interface, they're excellent kit regardless.
To be honest, a lot of tube equipment requires substantial 'slap and tickle' to optimize. I rather enjoy the process, but many simply do not. Nor is everybody's metrics the same as mine. If they were, these boards would be quite boring. When I get a new component, I may be quite happy with it in the first week, but ultimately, it takes me about 6 months to get everything dialed in. I enjoy the process; it is my nature.

All I can say is that IMO both the CAT and DartZeel gear are excellent, and I could certainly build a tremendously satisfying system with either. FWIW

-Paul
 
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taters

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It seems like CAT purposefully plays hard to get. My understanding is that they don't have a remote on their gear. It takes a very long time to get the gear made. They don't have many dealers to hear it. They don't submit their gear for reviews....

I guess when you make the finest quality gear with limited production you can play hard to get.
 

GaryProtein

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Never heard of CAT. Is that California Audio Technologies? Their website boasts of the materials etc but doesn't actually list any products.

Another company--California Audio Technology--a very high end custom audio and home theater equipment company also goes by CAT.

http://www.calaudiotech.com

CAT is also, as discussed a different company, Convergent Audio Technologies.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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I guess when you make the finest quality gear with limited production you can play hard to get.

And being in business for 25+ years with little advertising and few reviews seems to speak worlds about the product and business plan.
 

marty

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Apr 20, 2010
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Yes, everyone I talk to tells me CAT will smoke any other tube gear. I know Audio Research has a very strong, almost fanatical following, but I wonder how many folks would keep Audio Research if they tried a CAT in their system (unless they have NOLA speakers).

About 2-3 years ago, when Steve was still living in Danville, CA, he took me by Mike Grellman's house who had both the CAT reference amps and the ARC 610T's in his listening room. For those of you who don't know Mike,, he is as discerning a listener as they come. His rig was a Rockport Sirius with an all Aesthetic tube front end and large Rockport speakers (not sure of the model). He had the luxury of being able to use either amp as both of them were there long term. He was kind enough to switch to the ARC for me so I could hear the comparison. After a few hours of listening, the differences were obvious. But in the end, there was no wrong or right, just personal preference. Mike preferred the CAT because he liked the "density" of tone color. I had a slight preference for the ARC because of what I thought was slightly better spatial resolution with a more expansive sound stage. The point here is that this just proves yet again, the old adage about stereo systems as well as ice cream as taught to me by my old mentor Paul Heath: "There's chocolate, vanilla, and strawberry. Yer pays yer money and yer takes yer choice".
 
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