Best phono stage?

Mike Lavigne · Jun 11, 2014

rockitman said:
It has rca, not enough XLR inputs. I am not interested in proprietary zeel connectors.

it has a total of 6 inputs; one is dedicated XLR. one is dedicated phono with RCA. 3 are RCA/BNC (zeel), and one is RCA/BNC (zeel) but can be converted to another dedicated phono with RCA.

if you want great digital for relatively reasonable price use the Playback Designs MPS-5 which has the zeel connector. better than any other interface. and I find that mostly RCA sounds better than XLR for most sources at the top of the food chain. just my personal experience, of course. I also find that preamps that are designed to be essentially differentially balanced with multiple XLR's do not sound quite as transparent as non-differentially designed preamps. simply more simple circuits. I used to call these preamps 'single-ended' however I've been told that is not a correct term.

so don't be afraid of the zeel. even compare dart and other amps with the dart using the zeel. it's just better. more transparent, better imaging. and a .5 meter zeel connection sounds the same as a .5 kilometer zeel connection. perfect 50 ohm interface. read Stereophile Nov 2001, page 59 - 69 regarding interface cables and reflections written by Herve Deletraz prior to him starting the darTZeel brand to learn why zeel is better......and RCA and XLR have issues.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 11, 2014

Sunnyboy1956 said:
Mike
Any indication of price ? This could be promising IMO if I can trade in my GAT and Nagra phono...
Cheers
Pradeep

I don't yet know exactly what the price will be. the current NHB-18NS is approx. 30,000-34,000 Swiss Francs with a single phono so figure that is the ballpark it will be in. add 10% for conversion to dollars. I think another 2000-3000 Swiss Francs for the second phono.

so under $40k all in with 2 phonos.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 11, 2014

awsmone said:
Hi Mike

I am seriously interested in the new 18NS with two phonos

Can you post some pics and initial impressions

Thx

I will post some pics tomorrow.

here are some initial impressions;

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14566-New-NHB-18NS&p=270977&viewfull=1#post270977

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14566-New-NHB-18NS&p=271040&viewfull=1#post271040

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14566-New-NHB-18NS&p=271157&viewfull=1#post271157

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14566-New-NHB-18NS&p=271213&viewfull=1#post271213

Mike Lavigne · Jun 11, 2014

XV-1 said:
Mile
Can you take a photo of the gain and loading changes on the back of the Dart?

I'm happy to get that done tomorrow.

Bruce B · Jun 11, 2014

rockitman said:
It has rca, not enough XLR inputs. I am not interested in proprietary zeel connectors.

Me either.... I'd buy the CAT Legend if I wanted a FF preamp. Too bad the Pass XS doesn't include phono.

microstrip · Jun 11, 2014

Mike Lavigne said:
(...) so don't be afraid of the zeel. even compare dart and other amps with the dart using the zeel. it's just better. more transparent, better imaging. and a .5 meter zeel connection sounds the same as a .5 kilometer zeel connection. perfect 50 ohm interface. read Stereophile Nov 2001, page 59 - 69 regarding interface cables and reflections written by Herve Deletraz prior to him starting the darTZeel brand to learn why zeel is better......and RCA and XLR have issues.

Mike,

Although I respect the 50 ohm BNC option of Herve and its implementation, there is no technical reason in it to sound better than proper implemented RCA or XLR. BTW the idea of using terminated cables with the matching low impedance in audio was not original - I still own an old Meridiam 101 preamplifier from the 80's using 75 ohm terminated cable

, and I think another UK manufacturer I do no remember the name anymore also used it in the 90's. When I owned the DartZeel combo I was very astonished (and a little disappointed I must say ) to find large differences in sound quality between brands of quality 50 ohm BNC cables.

As usual, the implementation is 99%.

jtinn · Jun 11, 2014

rockitman said:
Sounds like the Dart kills two birds with one stone...great main pre and phono. If it wasn't for the zeel BNC connections (prefer XLR), I might even be a customer.

Christian you can get it with more XLRs if you wanted to. The darT to Zeel links are in addition to and not in place of RCA or XLR.

garylkoh · Jun 11, 2014

Bruce B said:
Me either.... I'd buy the CAT Legend if I wanted a FF preamp. Too bad the Pass XS doesn't include phono.

Bruce, coming to Thursday's PNWAS meeting? We'll be showcasing phono stages to see if we need/can afford to replace the club's reference phono stage.

Bruce B · Jun 11, 2014

garylkoh said:
Bruce, coming to Thursday's PNWAS meeting? We'll be showcasing phono stages to see if we need/can afford to replace the club's reference phono stage.

With bells on! Should be a good meeting!!

jfrech · Jun 11, 2014

Mike Lavigne said:
I don't yet know exactly what the price will be. the current NHB-18NS is approx. 30,000-34,000 Swiss Francs with a single phono so figure that is the ballpark it will be in. add 10% for conversion to dollars. I think another 2000-3000 Swiss Francs for the second phono.

so under $40k all in with 2 phonos.

Anyone know if Dart ever plans to release a standalone phono?

mep · Jun 11, 2014

jfrech said:
Anyone know if Dart ever plans to release a standalone phono?

If you go Dart, can you drink just a little of the Kool-Aid? Seems like most people who have Dart gear aren't in the mix and match crowd. Usually they are all in, BD.

microstrip · Jun 11, 2014

mep said:
If you go Dart, can you drink just a little of the Kool-Aid? Seems like most people who have Dart gear aren't in the mix and match crowd. Usually they are all in, BD.

There is effectively some special synergy between the Dart preamplifier and the ts power amplifier. Now that the preamplifier has taken out most of its idiosyncrasies, improving its interface with other units the combo should be a winner again!

microstrip · Jun 11, 2014

jfrech said:
Anyone know if Dart ever plans to release a standalone phono?

IMHO the current DartZeel phono represents excellent value for money when bought in the whole preamplifier package - however if sold in a separate package, considering the cost of the battery power supply and box it would be very expensive and would have to face a lot of competition representing better value for money. I agree with what Mark said, DartZeel is a system!

Mike Lavigne · Jun 11, 2014

microstrip said:
IMHO the current DartZeel phono represents excellent value for money when bought in the whole preamplifier package - however if sold in a separate package, considering the cost of the battery power supply and box it would be very expensive and would have to face a lot of competition representing better value for money. I agree with what Mark said, DartZeel is a system!

even if one chooses to use RCA's (as Fremer does) or XLR's with dart pre and amps one still get's great performance. and then it's no different than any of a number of synergistic sets of phono-pre-amps such as Lamm, or ARC, or Pass Labs, or Yipslon, or Vitus, or Shindo. there is nothing sinister or somehow negative about the dart 'system' other than it happens to offer an alternative interface for that 'little bit' extra transparency.

all of those products have advantages when used together as they were optimized for that situation.

microstrip · Jun 11, 2014

Mike Lavigne said:
even if one chooses to use RCA's (as Fremer does) or XLR's with dart pre and amps one still get's great performance. and then it's no different than any of a number of synergistic sets of phono-pre-amps such as Lamm, or ARC, or Pass Labs, or Yipslon, or Vitus, or Shindo. there is nothing sinister or somehow negative about the dart 'system' other than it happens to offer an alternative interface for that 'little bit' extra transparency.

all of those products have advantages when used together as they were optimized for that situation.

Surely. I have always found that using the same brand of preamplifier and amplifier really optimizes the system. YMMV.

Mike Lavigne · Jun 11, 2014

microstrip said:
Mike,.........When I owned the DartZeel combo I was very astonished (and a little disappointed I must say ) to find large differences in sound quality between brands of quality 50 ohm BNC cables.

As usual, the implementation is 99%.

when the performance of a cable is primarily in the precision of the maintenance of the 50 ohm impedence, the quality of the plug attachments and cable geometry is crucial. i found that there were 4 different performance levels of BNC's; Radio Shack was worst.....smeared, lacking refinement. next best were some i purchased from Audience, and it was their first attempt at building a BNC with the 50 ohm interface. they were quite good, but not great. alot better were the 50 ohm zeel cables from darTZeel themselves. and they were very modestly priced (approx $500 for a 1.5m pair which outperformed my Transaprent Opus MM2 1.5m RCA's ($15k) and approx $2000 for an 8m pair) (these are the one's Fremer has used occasionally), and the very best were the Evolution Acoustics BNC's which is mostly what i now use.

with such reasonably priced zeel cables from Herve it almost removes cables as an issue.

it's easy to build a BNC cable, but doing it right does require an understanding of what the cable needs to do. my understanding is that Herve has some special tools to build his cables. obviously EA also gets it.

additionally if one does choose to use a dart pre and amplifier; you combine super sounding inexpensive interconnects with no need for a phono stage power cord or interconnect, and then if you use the Playback Designs digital you get to use an inexpensive zeel cable too.

all that cable investment savings can go a long way toward better electronics or more vinyl. when i first acquired my dart pre 8 years ago i was able to be almost revenue neutral with what i sold that the dart pre replaced. and considering the dart pre is battery powered power cables for that or even power conditioning is less significant.

asiufy · Jun 11, 2014

mep said:
If you go Dart, can you drink just a little of the Kool-Aid? Seems like most people who have Dart gear aren't in the mix and match crowd. Usually they are all in, BD.

Well, I think it's pretty natural that people tend to stick with pre+power combos from the same manufacturer. You did with ARC. Edorr just did with Spectral.
IMO, the units separately are incredible, and together, unbeatable.

alexandre

Mike Lavigne · Jun 12, 2014

XV-1 said:
Mile
Can you take a photo of the gain and loading changes on the back of the Dart?

the silver cover is for the new updated phono on input 1 (there is a separate card and adjustment for each channel, this pic is only the right channel from this angle). as this is pre-production the final version might not look like this exactly.

input 2 is the current top level phono.

pic 1 shows the LED's lit up, and pic 2 shows them not active. one row of LED's moves gain, the other moves loading. you activate the LED's by first toggling side to side then adjust one row then the other. quick and easy to do.

sorry about the poor pics, my Leica does not 'close focus' very well and I was leaning hard behind my gear to get the shot.

microstrip · Jun 12, 2014

Mike Lavigne said:
(...) it's easy to build a BNC cable, but doing it right does require an understanding of what the cable needs to do. my understanding is that Herve has some special tools to build his cables. obviously EA also gets it. (...)

Mike,

Surely, but BNC termination is common practice. As far as I know Herve gets his precision cables from a known Swiss company that manufactures thousands of kilometers of cables for CERN (European Organization for Nuclear Research) that houses the Large Hadron Collider. I do not think they use audiophile cables there ...

IMHO, the $9k for an 7.5m pair denies the intrinsic advantage of the BNC system. Remember we always want to have the best in WBF!

Mike Lavigne · Jun 12, 2014

microstrip said:
Mike, Surely, but BNC termination is common practice.

not so common for high end cable companies compared to their expertise at RCA and XLR. so when they do a BNC it's.....

microstrip said:
Mike, As usual, the implementation is 99%.

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