Bottlehead Repro Tube Head Amp vs Cello/King

John Brooks said:

Miles, I don't recall all the tubes in the Repro; there were a pair of Tungsols (Rich may remember the rest). The Seduction kit is about $425 I believe. The Eros lists at $799 as a kit. Bottlehead will build it for you for ~$400. The stock EH tubes completely suck. I used a pair of 1960's Amperex EF86, a 7308 PQ white label, and a NOS RCA 12BH7A rectifier which brought it to quite a respectable level. I built part of the kit, got busy, and had Bottlehead finish it. In the end, I was into it for ~$1400 (including WA state sales tax). I found the Flux Magnetics heads to perform as claimed, which is to say they approach the performance of a studio machine head.

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Thanks a lot for the info about the FM heads; I'm going to have to look into that more. In what way did you feel the ER heads approached the studio sound. Transparency? Frequency extension? Dynamics? All of the above?

Thanks also for the correction on the EROS!

When I used the Repro, had Tele EF806S's and a Tele ECC88. Tried a couple others including the 7308. Like the 7308 a lot--with the vaunted Amperex midrange and lushness. But just thought the Tele retrieved more space, was a little more neutral and detailed. Among the others I tried also some Mullard 10 M EF86s and they were ok-perhaps just a little too lush. I also have a few mroe that haven't tried

Re Flux Magnetics heads: Yes transparency, inner detail, frequency extension. Bear in mind that they have a slightly lower output than the standard Otari or Technics head. This is less of an issue with the Repro, which has ~10 db more gain than the Eros or Seduction. With the lattter, I found I needed about 10-14 db more gain than the Eros provided.

Not too long ago I had the privilege of having both the Bottlehead Repro and the King/Cello tape preamps in my home for side by side comparison. My tapes were all played on a Studer A812 with output taken directly from the heads. My preamp/amp combo is the Modwright LS36.5/KWA 150. Speakers are the Von Schweikert VR-9SE's. I listened to some of my best classical and jazz tapes, both from the Tape Project and 2 track pre-records. My final impression was that I could be happy living with either preamp, but there were noticeable differences. The Repro seemed to be better at fleshing out the individual instruments, especially winds. On the other hand, the overall presentation of the King/Cello was better. By that I mean the instruments' positions were more defined, and the sense of the room in which the recording was made was more noticeable. With the King/Cello, I sometimes felt as though I was going to fall into the huge room that was opening out in front of me! As you may be able to tell, I am not an audio reviewer or writer, so I am struggling somewhat to explain what I heard. The best analogy I can give is that the Repro was like having some of my closest, well known friends gathered in the room. I know them very intimately and personally, but can't tell exactly where they are in the room. With the King/Cello there was a group of less well known friends in a larger, well defined room, with assigned seating. Other improvements I noticed with the King/Cello included a more defined bass and a better sense of the musicians actually interacting with each other.

When it finally came down to making a choice, I went with the King/Cello. It was definitely the better of the two with my system in my room. But as I said, I could easily have been happy with the Repro. The one thing I found objectionable about the Repro was the lack of an equalization adjustment. Setting the equalization correctly on the King/Cello made a huge difference in the sound.

Dan

Gentlemen (and a Lady or two I hope),

Read through the posts and decided to offer the following as both an introduction and comments on my K/C preamp:

First a bit about me – I am retired and on Social Security - all the information I’m going to volunteer about my age. Being old means that I also had the opportunity to play with tubes in High School and build a number of Eicos and Heathkits AND listen to some of the earliest stereo records. Their clear, unprocessed, spatial attributes had a subtle but lasting influence on both my listening habits and enjoyment.

U47 introduced me to tapes maybe 20 years ago (thanks a LOT Rich) and I was able to acquire a lot of firmware back before it became unaffordable. Acquiring tapes has never been easy and one thing I found was a dearth of info on who/what was available, so I started doing research which resulted in my 2 track pre-record tapeography. I dabbled with many different tape machines and this exercise led me to realize and understand that their sonic failings lay primarily in the playback electronics and to a lesser extent with the heads. Rich also introduced me to the Stellavox brand and after a bit of trial-and-error tweaking of an sp-7, was able to enjoy many hours listening to my collection (at night over headphones to not disturb my young family)

Fast forward to two years ago when another friend, Mike B. discovered a Connecticut warehouse containing Cello remains. Mining this trove resulted in parts and info about their P100 phono preamp, one of the modules in their renowned Audio Suite. I built it up and discovered that it sounded great. Discalmer: I had certainly heard of Cello but never had or took the opportunity to listen to their products – WAY out of my price range). Along the way, I discovered that their highly-acclaimed P603 tape playback module was a derivation of the phono design so I tried to implement both in a single “box” (actually two boxes including power supply) and have been very happy with the results. Those few folks who have bought them also seem to think so.

As previously stated, I also have taken the opportunity to A/B various tape heads and outboard playback electronics – the former including stock Technics, Studer, various Nortronics, Bogen and Wolke; the latter including the Manley, Seduction and Tape Repro. This posting wouldn’t be here if I didn’t think the Cello was better. To my ears the superiority lies in two areas; bass dynamics and imaging.

Any preamp design relies on the amplifying devices and the topology in which they are used. Based on my listening experience, I hear transistors doing a better job of preserving waveshapes (rise/sustain/fall times) and this is especially evident on bass transients. They also seem to be “faster” and this attribute appears to enhance the “space” between instruments. I now can say that I’ve heard “air”, and am trying to develop a separate explanation of what this may involve - which will probably bore you tears. The other products I’ve auditioned (including a Hovland on phono) were all very good but the K/C had more of what I’ll call “slam”, and the others tended to collapse the sound stage. I take no credit for any of the design – that is due to the genius of Tom Coleangelo – I’m just tweaking around the edges and making it available.

Should mention that my system includes Quad 63’s (with a DIY, center-channel, 4 panel Quad woofer), Modified Lazarus hybrid, Class A amp and a homebrew version of the Palette Equalizer/Preamp using Cello parts.

Furture “experimental” projects include a line stage (with remote control, optical volume control and Cello output stage) in an identical “box” as the preamp and a Palette “type” equalizer (no preamplifier) with a 30 ft umbilical, in a “roll around” so you can put it by your listening chair. It will plug into the tape loop of your existing preamp.

I’m building up two more preamps; let me know if you’re interested in one (or more).

Charles

"To serve the music"

Myles, thanks for your intro to this site. lets hope its a lot more active than tapeproject forum.
Just got my Repro Tube and managed to squeeze in a few songs before I took off for a trip.
Definitely much better than stock studer A810 , which doesnt float my boat compare to my Raven AC3 with schroeder 2fw and ortofon A90. However I find it very noisy. I m using a realistik made in japan 6CM7 , amperex PQ 7308 and telefunken EF806. Was told by Dan of tapeproject its probably the EF806 tubes and maybe after 50 hrs it may quieten down. What is your experience with tube rollings particularly the EF806/86 tubes esp tube noise?
Thanks

audioblazer said:

Myles, thanks for your intro to this site. lets hope its a lot more active than tapeproject forum.
Just got my Repro Tube and managed to squeeze in a few songs before I took off for a trip.
Definitely much better than stock studer A810 , which doesnt float my boat compare to my Raven AC3 with schroeder 2fw and ortofon A90. However I find it very noisy. I m using a realistik made in japan 6CM7 , amperex PQ 7308 and telefunken EF806. Was told by Dan of tapeproject its probably the EF806 tubes and maybe after 50 hrs it may quieten down. What is your experience with tube rollings particularly the EF806/86 tubes esp tube noise?
Thanks

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Hi Soon!

Glad to see you made your way over here! I guess the first question I have is how many hours do you have on the Repro--and are you using the V-cap option? If you're using the latter, give it some time. I remember people telling me the unit sounded broken until the Repro had a 100 hrs under its belt. But then, it'll take another 200 hours for the caps to fully form.

Know about it but hate it anyway. Am just going through the cap thing again with my new amps. But as Steve said, it's worth the wait!

I'll wait to comment about the tubes--but will say this. I didn't find any better 6CM7s than what came with the unit; I tried the realistic and a couple of others and thought they were awful: fuzzy, dark, slow, etc. Now that could be that the tubes were used but tried three pairs of tubes in the Repro. So I might go with the stock also again. The Amperex is a good choice, nice full midrange, powerful bottom (though could be slightly tighter) and softer top end. One might also try a Tele E88cc in that position. It'll be a little more neutral with better overall resolution, extension and ambience.

BTW nice analog rig! The Ortofon A9 would be on my cartridge short list along with the Lyra Titan i, ZYX Omega Gold, Dynavector 1-T and Clearaudio.

The Schroeder arm hasn't gotten much play in the US. How do you like it compared to other arms you owned or heard?

Well I just got it , played for abt an hour and off I went the next morning for a holiday. Not much time on it. Paul of Tapeproject burnt it for abt 150 hrs. Probably need another 50hrs as advised by Paul. Was given the Realistik and CBS 6CM7 tube and an amperex tube as a token due to some issues which is not appropriate for me to discuss at this forum. Good experience with Dan though. What I find disturbing is that the tube noise is clearly audible, not some thing acceptable in the long run. Will play around with tubes and give it some time before I come to any conclusion. By the way, can the Cello be a direct replacement for the Tube Repro ( mine used a XLR connector even though direct head output is single ended)? Keep my option open.
Schroeder tonearm can be a real pain to use. It doesnt have fine adjustment for VTA. Changing VTA will change VTF and vice versa. Sounded sweet but wish its can be more dynamics. heard Graham B44 mk 2 at friend place with the same turntable. Easy and accurate to use. Sounded really good. Just didnt like the mechanical look- seems so complex
Ordered a TW raven 10.5 instead to match my turntable. Thomas is the best manufacturer I have dealed so far. So responsive. Suppose to get it by now but its delayed for another 4-6 weeks due to Munich Show and back log in orders. Doing pretty well I thk. I also bought a Reed 2P 12" to be use with my garrard 301. waiting for a psu which is expected to be 2-3mths overdue. Plinth should be done in another 2 weeks or so. 1 of the best looking tonearm I have seen. Sonically I m not sure how it sounds but certainly compared favourably at audiogon and audioasylum by Mikel and others

Yes , I got the caps changed to V caps

audioblazer said:

Well I just got it , played for abt an hour and off I went the next morning for a holiday. Not much time on it. Paul of Tapeproject burnt it for abt 150 hrs. Probably need another 50hrs as advised by Paul. Was given the Realistik and CBS 6CM7 tube and an amperex tube as a token due to some issues which is not appropriate for me to discuss at this forum. Good experience with Dan though. What I find disturbing is that the tube noise is clearly audible, not some thing acceptable in the long run. Will play around with tubes and give it some time before I come to any conclusion. By the way, can the Cello be a direct replacement for the Tube Repro ( mine used a XLR connector even though direct head output is single ended)? Keep my option open.

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Yes give it a little time and try swapping the 6CM7s. And yes the K/C can be a drop in replacement. I also wonder with the mod if somehow the routing of the wire from the head is contributing to the noise problem?

audioblazer said:

Schroeder tonearm can be a real pain to use. It doesnt have fine adjustment for VTA. Changing VTA will change VTF and vice versa. Sounded sweet but wish its can be more dynamics. heard Graham B44 mk 2 at friend place with the same turntable. Easy and accurate to use. Sounded really good. Just didnt like the mechanical look- seems so complex
Ordered a TW raven 10.5 instead to match my turntable. Thomas is the best manufacturer I have dealed so far. So responsive. Suppose to get it by now but its delayed for another 4-6 weeks due to Munich Show and back log in orders. Doing pretty well I thk. I also bought a Reed 2P 12" to be use with my garrard 301. waiting for a psu which is expected to be 2-3mths overdue. Plinth should be done in another 2 weeks or so. 1 of the best looking tonearm I have seen. Sonically I m not sure how it sounds but certainly compared favourably at audiogon and audioasylum by Mikel and others

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Sounds like you've really got two great arms coming in. Having heard the Raven but heard the Reed on the Technics SP10 at CES and it was very impressive. Mike L is however, far better to comment on it's sound than I. But for me, if an arm doesn't allow for VTA adjustment on the fly (or like the special Air Tangent model did with remote control!!!!), it's a deal breaker.

I dont suppose the noise is due modification otherws Dan should have caught it. Hopefully its only telefunken EF 806s that is contributing to the problem. According to Dan , after the Cathode of the tube is burn in for abt 50hrs it may quieten down otherwise I will need to hunt for another pair if its the culprit.
Bought Reed 2P 2mths ago. Now the latest Reed 2Q tonearm even allow azimuth adjustment using laser, the 1st of its kind as far as I know. I even purchase their tonearm base (turret) which is mark of cork and various matrixes. Looks exotic

I've heard more than one comment that the tube repros are noisy. Myles, were you able to get that "under control". The K/C is very quiet - at least in the 50dB gain position. It starts to become apparent at 60dB of gain but I know of only one customer who is using that gain level - for MC phono.

Charles

I knw this thread is abt Repro vs Cello/king but I m sure there are other external electronic like Manley or Aria . Has anybody try these other electronics esp Aria ?

audioblazer said:

I knw this thread is abt Repro vs Cello/king but I m sure there are other external electronic like Manley or Aria . Has anybody try these other electronics esp Aria ?

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Haven't tried the Aria but heard it was good. As far as the Manley, it's was discontinued; some have averred that Eve Anna could be persuaded to build one but that's not the impression I got from speaking to her. Know there's some more out there that have listened to the Aria or Manley such as Rich Brown, if he's around!

I had the Aria on a 102 here for about 6-8 months. It all came as one unit so I can't comment on just the electronics. Unfortunately? I saw some Studer A80's and 810's and just had to have them. Like the quote in the movie Risky Business "Porsche/Studer", there is no substitute!
As a whole, comparing the A80 and an Aria 102, the sound of the Aria is more punchy/dynamic/clean, whereas the Studer with it's own electronics is more musical and relaxed. Since we cater mostly to audiophiles that like the musical and relaxed feeling, I got rid of the 102. I feel if they want more punchy/dynamic/clean sound, I have other tools to do that. The tape handling characteristics was a bouns!

Well I am a little late to this party but, better late than never. I have a BH Tube Repro, and a BH Seduction with an Otari MX5050 BII and a Studer A810 Console. I have never heard the K/C so no comments there, the repro has it's merits and sounds good in my system. The tubes make all the difference in the sound, I am using the Tele 806's and Amperex 7308 from the 60's just can not beat it.

Jay

Hi Jay, I just got my Tube Repro. Definitely much more exciting than the stock electronic for my studer A810. However, I can clearly hear the tube noise which evidently is due Tele 806s. Using ampex 7308 as well. Do U have any issue with your tube or Repro when it was new. Was told that maybe after burning in the tele 806s for 50 hrs , it may quieten down.

song

Hi Song,
I got mine used so I am guessing it was already burnt in, I have no issues with the tubes so far!!! I did however notice that by just touching the tubes the sound gets transfered through the repro, so it is very sensitive. You may have to play with it a little but, once you find the sweet spot leave it alone.

Jay

Jay,
Burning hot to touch. Did try to tighten a bit while its off and cold. No difference. I was using a pair a Realistic tube in place of stock 6CM7 tube and find it very noise. Quieten down when I replaced it with stock 6CM7 tube. Anyway will play it for awhile and see how it goes. If its still noisy will replace the tele ef806s and if its still noisy, the verdict may be clear. Thks

When you guys complain about the Repro being noisey, what type of noise are you referring to? Are we talking hum, hiss, or microphonics? If every tube you stick in the repro sounds noisey, it probably isn't the tubes making the noise-something else is the culprit. By the way, tubes very seldom become less noisey over time. The opposite is usually true. I wouldn't sit on a picket fence waiting for your tubes to make less noise.

Mark