VA Hospital scandal

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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Despite your political persuasion ...this VA system..a parallel system is a preview of single payer like one side of the aisle originally wanted at the beginning development of the ACA. Should we trust gov't with our healthcare ? I say no....incompetency, corruption and bias rules in gov't. This should not be a democrat vs republican vs independent debate. I think anyone with common sense should have doubts about gov't servicing our healthcare needs. Funny how the media is too stupid to even discuss this topic.

Mods...if this is over the line...close it. I think it is worthy of discussion in this case.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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With regards to veterans, what is even more disgraceful is that those who suffered grievous wounds in combat are basically handed over to their wives and/or families who are left to care for them after they are discharged from the hospital. Many parents and spouses have had to quit their jobs in order to provide full-time care to their loved ones with no support from the government. Recently, Elizabeth Dole, Michelle Obama, Jill Biden and Rosalynn Carter joined forces to try and help out veteran's families pay for their life-long expensive care. Here is a link to the article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/08/rosalynn-carter-elizabeth-dole_n_5112803.html

Somebody please explain to me why this should even be necessary. If our country sends off our people to war, the government has to be prepared to pay for all of the costs associated with their life-long care when they are unable to care for themselves due to their war wounds. It's not right these warriors are dumped off on their families and they bear the expense because the government is unwilling or unable to care for them.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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Despite your political persuasion ...this VA system..a parallel system is a preview of single payer like one side of the aisle originally wanted at the beginning development of the ACA. Should we trust gov't with our healthcare ? I say no....incompetency, corruption and bias rules in gov't. This should not be a democrat vs republican vs independent debate. I think anyone with common sense should have doubts about gov't servicing our healthcare needs. Funny how the media is too stupid to even discuss this topic.



Mods...if this is over the line...close it. I think it is worthy of discussion in this case.

Sorry Christian but the VA Hospital system has been a mess since I was in academics and research in the late '70s. You don't want to go there since the VA is basically staffed with third world doctors (not much different than city hospitals). And Congress' continued cutting of funds over the years has only made the situation worse. It has nothing to do with a single payer system, Obama or anything else but incompetency, not paying for good docs and not wanting to help our veterans.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Despite your political persuasion ...this VA system..a parallel system is a preview of single payer like one side of the aisle originally wanted at the beginning development of the ACA. Should we trust gov't with our healthcare ? I say no....incompetency, corruption and bias rules in gov't. This should not be a democrat vs republican vs independent debate. I think anyone with common sense should have doubts about gov't servicing our healthcare needs. Funny how the media is too stupid to even discuss this topic.

Mods...if this is over the line...close it. I think it is worthy of discussion in this case.

You have the right terminology, but the wrong system. Nobody serious on either side of aisle advocated for a system in which the hospitals, clinics, equipment, etc. we're owned and operated by the government and in which the doctors, nurses, aids, administrators, etc were all government employees. What some advocated, but was never a part of ACA, was what you said -- a single payer system. The appropriate existing comparator would be Medicare, not the VA. the VA and it's problems are wholly unrelated to ACA or anything proposed in the lead-up to ACA.

The ACA has it's problems; this is not on the list.

Tim
 

rockitman

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You have the right terminology, but the wrong system. Nobody serious on either side of aisle advocated for a system in which the hospitals, clinics, equipment, etc. we're owned and operated by the government and in which the doctors, nurses, aids, administrators, etc were all government employees. What some advocated, but was never a part of ACA, was what you said -- a single payer system. The appropriate existing comparator would be Medicare, not the VA. the VA and it's problems are wholly unrelated to ACA or anything proposed in the lead-up to ACA.

The ACA has it's problems; this is not on the list.

Tim

Like I said, the VA is a parallel healthcare system. Get rid of it and expand the existing civilian healthcare system to service vets....just like Medicare.
 

rockitman

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Sep 20, 2011
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+1, assimulate the vets into the civilian health care system and run it like medicare or whatever. It would doubtlessly be cheaper in the long run, and perhaps better care as well


100's of billions of taxpayer money could be saved by the efficiencies gained and better care as you say.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Like I said, the VA is a parallel healthcare system. Get rid of it and expand the existing civilian healthcare system to service vets....just like Medicare.

Oh I agree with that. In fact, take it a step further and just expand Medicare to cover vets; it's the best combination of excellent care and price control in the American system. what I disagree with is this:

VA system..a parallel system is a preview of single payer like one side of the aisle originally wanted at the beginning development of the ACA.

The VA system -- wholly owned and operated by government and staffed and run by people employed by government is what one side of the aisle still desperately wants us to believe ACA is -- socialized medicine. But it bears little resemblance to the single payer/private care system some people on the other side of the aisle wanted early in the development of ACA. That's simply wrong. Regardless of your political persuasion.

Tim
 

jazdoc

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Aug 7, 2010
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Well I've actually worked at a VA -- The John Cochran in St. Louis. Occasionally, by some miracle of happenstance, the stars aligned and the patients got exceptional care; typically when they were transferred to Chicago. But for most vets, the care was oft times worse than the Homer G Phillips city hospital where I also worked. I quickly learned that you had to hand carry the blood draws to the lab and stand over the tech to make sure they actually did the appropriate test. Trying to get an image interpretation in a timely fashion was nothing short of a miracle. I was a 3rd year medical student and taking care of ICU patients by myself at night -- a great trial by fire learning experience for me, but certainly not great for the patients.

What we are seeing in the current VA scandal is simply a manifestation of human nature -- we all respond to what is being measured, be it wait times, etc. And yes, it does raise the troublesome quandary for folks advocating a single payer system: there is simply no evidence that any system based on political self interest works better than individual economic self interest. Indeed, the preponderance of evidence is quite the opposite. And simply putting all these folks in Medicare doesn't solve the basic economic problem with Medicare: it is economically unsustainable. However, this isn't an isolated scandal, it's simply the latest scandal in a series of recurring, non-recurrent scandals indicative of a broken system that doesn't work
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Well I've actually worked at a VA -- The John Cochran in St. Louis. Occasionally, by some miracle of happenstance, the stars aligned and the patients got exceptional care; typically when they were transferred to Chicago. But for most vets, the care was oft times worse than the Homer G Phillips city hospital where I also worked. I quickly learned that you had to hand carry the blood draws to the lab and stand over the tech to make sure they actually did the appropriate test. Trying to get an image interpretation in a timely fashion was nothing short of a miracle. I was a 3rd year medical student and taking care of ICU patients by myself at night -- a great trial by fire learning experience for me, but certainly not great for the patients.

What we are seeing in the current VA scandal is simply a manifestation of human nature -- we all respond to what is being measured, be it wait times, etc. And yes, it does raise the troublesome quandary for folks advocating a single payer system: there is simply no evidence that any system based on political self interest works better than individual economic self interest. Indeed, the preponderance of evidence is quite the opposite. And simply putting all these folks in Medicare doesn't solve the basic economic problem with Medicare: it is economically unsustainable. However, this isn't an isolated scandal, it's simply the latest scandal in a series of recurring, non-recurrent scandals indicative of a broken system that doesn't work

I appreciate both your experience and your services, but neither has kept you from confusing single-payer systems with socialized medicine. A single-payer system is not based on political self-interest and does not remove economic self-interest. it does often include price controls, a limit on economic self-interest, in both Medicare and in large, employer-based insurance groups that are the economic driver of the American health care system. Sometimes caps aren't calculated well and result in procedures that are not properly compensated; a problem to be addressed. Most of the time, though, this is not the case. I manage my father's healthcare and financies, and the finest clinics in this very competitive medical town (Charlotte, NC) gladly take him and many other Medicare patients. His Oncologist is in one of the best Hematology/Oncology clinics in the state. My father has supplemental insurance, but it is only necessary for the deductibles. They take what Medicare pays...from a waiting room full of Medicare patients.

Is Medicare sustainable? It's solvent. Whether or not it is sustainable into whatever future is a question of political will and future economic conditions. If you can tell me with any certainty how "sustainable" Medicare is going to be in...say, 2024? I don't want you worrying about Medicare, I want you managing my stock portfolio.

The truth, with all the political posturing out of the equation, is that, barring economic collapse, Medicare is sustainable as long as we're committed to sustaining it, and there are good strategies for making it sustainable and affordable for a long time that we have, so far, not had the political will to use. Adding veterans coverage is not on the list. That would be a burden on the system, though it would probably be the least expensive way to move veteran's coverage into the private healthcare system. Offering Medicare for sale to Americans and American businesses would make it much stronger, much more sustainable, and would, IMO, be a much better system than ACA. But you'll have to get the insurance lobby out of the way of that one.

To keep Medicare from getting mixed up with socialized medicine, remember that Medicare is not a healthcare system. It is simply the biggest insurance group, with the greatest negotiating power. Being government-run is not ideal. If it were one big private insurance company with that huge senior chunk of the market, its negotiating power would be awesome. But that would create a whole other set of competition-deficit problems that would be even worse than a bit of government inefficiency.

Tim
 

Asamel

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Jan 22, 2012
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I'd be willing to bet that the same politicians who are screaming bloody murder now have voted to cut funds to the VA system and veterans in general.
 

jazdoc

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There is a terrific column by James Tarnanto in today's WSJ that is worth reading: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424052702304479704579577761333004746.html

Highlight is this delicious quote from January 2006 by Nobel Prize winner and former Enron employee Paul Krugman:

I know about a health care system that has been highly successful in containing costs, yet provides excellent care. And the story of this system's success provides a helpful corrective to anti-government ideology. For the government doesn't just pay the bills in this system--it runs the hospitals and clinics. No, I'm not talking about some faraway country. The system in question is our very own Veterans Health Administration, whose success story is one of the best-kept secrets in the American policy debate....

Ideology can't hold out against reality forever. Cries of ''socialized medicine'' didn't, in the end, succeed in blocking the creation of Medicare. And farsighted thinkers are already suggesting that the Veterans Health Administration, not President Bush's unrealistic vision of a system in which people go ''comparative shopping'' for medical care the way they do when buying tile (his example, not mine), represents the true future of American health care.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Phelonious Ponk

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I generally consider him an indiot with regard to his opinions on the economic reality we live in today.

Yeah, I get that. I asked because it looked as if you were just finding a new angle from which to beat the socialized medicine drum. Maybe you were just changing the subject. Are we clear yet that socialized medicine and a single-payer system are two totally separate things? And that the VA system is an example of the former and Medicare is an example (not really, but close enough) of the latter, and that mixing them in the conversation, for the purpose of pointing baddies at the politicians you don't like is either confused or disingenuous?

Tim
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Like the American health care system in general, the VA system is inconsistent. Many geographic areas are served very well by the VA system. I am frequently surprised by older patients with Medicare and a Medicare supplement insurance policy who still choose to use the VA for their health care needs.
 

Gregadd

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Apr 20, 2010
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Now that Obama care is not proving to be the election bonanza they hoped for they are desperate for an issue. If you want the truth just Google Repubican cuts to VA Funds
If the VA was private most Veterans would be excluded for preexisting conditions.
However the VA is in desperate need of automation. Congress should earmark funds for this purpose.
 

Gregadd

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P.S. the real scandal as pointed out Gov. Howard Dean twenty five states refuse Medicaid for political reasons It would not costly them a dime. In my claims own state of Va. Gov Terry McCauliff people are dying. That that is a scandal.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Now that Obama care is not proving to be the election bonanza they hoped for they are desperate for an issue. If you want the truth just Google Repubican cuts to VA Funds
If the VA was private most Veterans would be excluded for preexisting conditions.
However the VA is in desperate need of automation. Congress should earmark funds for this purpose.

The problem is that the VA doesn't contribute money to politicians and the vast majority of all earmarks are for corporations that donate money to the politicians who earmark money back to the corporations. Funny how it works.
 

rockitman

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The problem is that the VA doesn't contribute money to politicians and the vast majority of all earmarks are for corporations that donate money to the politicians who earmark money back to the corporations. Funny how it works.

Legalized corruption on both sides of the aisle.
 

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