Today's most innovative amplification technology: tubes or solid state?

Today's most innovative amplification technology: tubes or solid state?

  • Tubes

    Votes: 6 17.1%
  • Solid state

    Votes: 25 71.4%
  • Hybrid

    Votes: 3 8.6%
  • Other

    Votes: 1 2.9%

  • Total voters
    35

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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True, but isn't tube manufacturing a well-defined art and process, and if any tube designer wanted to push the art they could just make their own tubes??? Why is Pass, for example, designing his own semi-conductors... Instead of having designers spend time and money trying to match someone else's tubes to tighter tolerances, why can't they just design and build their own tubes to their specs, and help advance the art?

I think you are greatly underestimating the cost and complexity of setting up a tube manufacturing facility. It's also not a 'green' business which adds to the cost. Who is making tube manufacturing equipment now? When the Brits got out of tube manufacturing, they sold their equipment to the Chinese and it has taken the Chinese many years to produce tubes that people actually wanted to own. I believe that Richardson Electronics has bought up some of the tube manufacturing gear from American companies as they went out of the tube business. I believe the last American tube company that went out of production was the MPD plant in Owensboro, KY, that made 6550s (formally the GE plant). I believe that Richardson has all of that gear in storage somewhere in Illinois.

Remember that Western Electric tried to put their 300B back into production and they had the advantage of having the original equipment, drawings, specifications, and the doping recipe for the cathodes. It still kicked their ass and during the limited time the new 300Bs were in production, I didn't hear of anyone claiming they were better than the original 300B tubes.

What college is turning out vacuum tube engineers? There are a very limited number who train for the microwave tube industry which is entirely different than the audio tube world. So even though you say it's a well-defined art and process, the original tube companies haven't made their production processes available to anyone to my knowledge and it might as well be a black art. If it was easy to start up an audio tube company, it would have already happened in the U.S. There is a world-wide demand for vacuum tubes for both audio gear and guitar amps, certainly enough to build a business case if one was so inclined to jump in. It's a daunting challenge which would need some very deep pockets. It could take two or more years before you could have acceptable quality tubes that you could sell on the market once you started production.
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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as far as innovative amplifier technology, i'm not technically knowledgable enough to determine what circuits are truely innovative.

i have to approach this type question from the performance back to maybe understand why i like what i like and what is innovative about that circuit. which leads me to say that minimalist solid state with minimal parts count in the signal path and then exectued to a very high degree of quality allows for the highest performance. not sure that is innovative or not.

if i were to name my top 10 amplifiers, 7 or 8 of them would be tubes, modestly powered tubes mostly. some SET. however; my 2 overall favorite would be solid state as i describe above. ultimately at the top of the amplifier food chain solid state, at it's very best, can be quieter, less distorted, and has advantages on efficient loudspeakers i tend to prefer. below the top of the food chain there are too many variables to generalize.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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I voted tubes...of course this depends on your definition of "innovative"...

Yes, DaveyF. Curiously no one seems to know what is exactly asked by the OP, and each of us just votes in his preferred technology. The OP lists three requirements that can be contradictory, I do not know how to vote.

Some random thoughts - can we consider innovative a solid state device that emulates tube sound? Will an extremely accurate amplifier carry us to nirvana? How can we know if the circuit of amplifier XYZ that is potted in modules is innovative? IMHO we will have real innovation in amplifiers when some one correlates very fine measurements with sound quality systematically.
 

c1ferrari

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May 15, 2010
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if i were to name my top 10 amplifiers, 7 or 8 of them would be tubes, modestly powered tubes mostly. some SET.

Mike,

Would you mind enumerating these tube amps :confused:
Thanks :cool:
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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Mike,

Would you mind enumerating these tube amps :confused:
Thanks :cool:

I don't want to hijack the thread (and if I did answer here we would go off on that tangent for sure), but if you want to open another thread with that question, i'll be glad to answer.

I look forward to seeing you and Sonny at Newport in a few days.
 

c1ferrari

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May 15, 2010
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Okay, Mike :)
We're staying at the Hilton...see you, soon :D
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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As I posted earlier, the DDFA specifically and the category of PowerDAC seems extremely innovative and when well executed, possibly capable of addressing fundamental challenges in amplification.

I hope this thread can explore options like these vs. having the dreaded SS vs tubes argument all over again.

I read that, but it's not clear to me what the underlying amplification technology is - isn't it still solid state of some kind?
 

ack

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May 6, 2010
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i have to approach this type question from the performance back to maybe understand why i like what i like and what is innovative about that circuit. which leads me to say that minimalist solid state with minimal parts count in the signal path and then exectued to a very high degree of quality allows for the highest performance. not sure that is innovative or not.

It was a tough question to phrase... some caught on it, so let me clarify: Which amplification technology, i.e. AMPLIFICATION DEVICE TYPE, is currently the most innovative and stands to offer more potential innovation in the future. In other words, which amplification device type is going to help us get to nirvana.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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It was a tough question to phrase... some caught on it, so let me clarify: Which amplification technology, i.e. AMPLIFICATION DEVICE TYPE, is currently the most innovative and stands to offer more potential innovation in the future. In other words, which amplification device type is going to help us get to nirvana.

I thought we had already achieved Nirvana. Aren't there people jumping up and down on WBF talking about how great their amps are including Spectral people, Lamm people, Dart people, Solution people, Class D people, etc.??
 

Mike Lavigne

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Apr 25, 2010
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It was a tough question to phrase... some caught on it, so let me clarify: Which amplification technology, i.e. AMPLIFICATION DEVICE TYPE, is currently the most innovative and stands to offer more potential innovation in the future. In other words, which amplification device type is going to help us get to nirvana.

SET, Push/Pull, OTL, Hybrid, Class A, Class A/B, Class D, single ended, balanced, Switching power supply; i know the terms and general ideas behind the terms but not the nuance of the circuits enough to be able to speak intelligently about this question. i spend little time thinking about amplification devices.

i can only listen and then maybe relate differences between what amps i've heard to my surface knowledge of the designs and builds.

i wonder what percentage of the participants can do your question justice with sufficient technical insights to give valuable answers. maybe it's just me.:D
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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It was a tough question to phrase... some caught on it, so let me clarify: Which amplification technology, i.e. AMPLIFICATION DEVICE TYPE, is currently the most innovative and stands to offer more potential innovation in the future. In other words, which amplification device type is going to help us get to nirvana.

It's not a tough question, it's two opposing questions. Innovation? In plain English:

The action or process of innovating.

synonyms: change, alteration, revolution, upheaval, transformation, metamorphosis, breakthrough; More
new measures, new methods, modernization, novelty, newness;
creativity, originality, ingenuity, inspiration, inventiveness;
informala shake up

a new method, idea, product, etc.

Nirvana? Good luck with that one. Volumes have been written and it remains evasive, but I suspect that you're using it to simply mean "a state of bliss."

The problem is that one of your questions has a clear answer and the other is open to broad interpretation. You'll have to do some serious rational gymnastics to declare tube technology "Innovative," particularly in this age of hyperbolic innovation. The world has raced forward at light speed since tube technology was invented. Tube amps have slowly evolved.

But where you find your bliss is personal.

Tim
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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As I posted earlier, the DDFA specifically and the category of PowerDAC seems extremely innovative and when well executed, possibly capable of addressing fundamental challenges in amplification.

I hope this thread can explore options like these vs. having the dreaded SS vs tubes argument all over again.

It seems unlikely. I know you read that CSR link you posted. In one short paragraph -- Digital, Class D, Feedback and DSP. The four horsemen of the apocalypse. I don't think it's a discussion that will evolve into SS vs Tubes; I think it's a discussion that will fail to get any traction at all. Pity.

Tim
 

zztop7

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Dec 12, 2012
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In other words, which amplification device type is going to help us get to nirvana.

Serious answer - I am not being light or frivolous. Excellent amplifiers that can be professionally [correctly] serviced within 100 miles of any owner in the country the amplifiers are sold. 50 miles would be much better. My definition of an AMPLIFICATION DEVICE TYPE that is NIRVANA.

zz.
 

JonFo

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Jun 11, 2010
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I read that, but it's not clear to me what the underlying amplification technology is - isn't it still solid state of some kind?

Ack, yes, DDFA is all solid state, with the fundamental amp being class D, but the critical part is the DDFA architecture that turns it into a true high-performance amp thanks to a real-time comparator that adapts to the load. It then goes way beyond that with support for all kinds of features necessary to build active speaker systems.

All of that is incredibly innovative on its own, but what I believe is still to be explored are all the options for high-performance active speakers with direct digital inputs. To my mind, Bob Stuart of Meridian got it right decades ago with his actives, and that the fully digital DSP Meridian line establishes a model for how most SoTA speakers will be architected in the future. It's very hard to get the max performance when dealers or end users mix and match random stuff together.

So one of the benefits of designs like the DDFA is it can do all kinds of speaker processing (predictive limiting, Dynamic EQ, crossovers, etc.) along with the amplification all wrapped inside the same feedback loop that gives tight real-time, real-world performance. Digital speakers built with this approach will be hard to beat.
 

JonFo

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Jun 11, 2010
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It seems unlikely. I know you read that CSR link you posted. In one short paragraph -- Digital, Class D, Feedback and DSP. The four horsemen of the apocalypse. I don't think it's a discussion that will evolve into SS vs Tubes; I think it's a discussion that will fail to get any traction at all. Pity.

Tim

Tim, you forgot to add software, plenty of that in there as well ;-)

I think the question of SS vs tubes in relation to innovation misses the point that a much more important aspect of audio performance is the overall architecture of the system from input to output. And that's where I beleive the trail blazed by Meridian is the correct path.

What would be nice is if a protocol like SpeakerLink would become an industry standard and we could have our choice of speaker topologies and price points. As nice as the M DSP speakers are, I'd be hankering for a DDFA-based Direct-Drive ESL speaker.
 

microstrip

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You are taking a single sentence from a brilliant Bruno Putzeys presentation, creating the risk of being misunderstood by most people. IMHO if you want to quote videos you should do a significant part of it, so people can understand what is being addressed. BTW, as far as I remember, our member Tailspn has also written similar comments about being "analog stuff" in the thread about DSD versus PCM.
 

dallasjustice

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You are taking a single sentence from a brilliant Bruno Putzeys presentation, creating the risk of being misunderstood by most people. IMHO if you want to quote videos you should do a significant part of it, so people can understand what is being addressed. BTW, as far as I remember, our member Tailspn has also written similar comments about being "analog stuff" in the thread about DSD versus PCM.
I linked to the entire video. Sorry that threw you off.
 

microstrip

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I linked to the entire video. Sorry that threw you off.

I had seen the presentations of Bruno Putzeys before - even with the powerpoint slides and re-listened to the minutes around the sentence you refer. It is why I considered it as inappropriate as an answer to Tom original question, particularly as the post had no commentary on it.
 

dallasjustice

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I had seen the presentations of Bruno Putzeys before - even with the powerpoint slides and re-listened to the minutes around the sentence you refer. It is why I considered it as inappropriate as an answer to Tom original question, particularly as the post had no commentary on it.

I thought it was an enlightening presentation and very relevant to this thread since it would fall under the topic of analog innovation. I guess you disagree and think that class D is really not analog?
 

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