Which one is the most innovative technology and which one is most likely to carry us to nirvana, i.e. amplification with the most extreme accuracy (preamp or amplifier)
Today's most innovative amplification technology: tubes or solid state?
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In this corner we have.......Tubby Tube
In the opposite corner ...Slick Solid
Let the games begin!
In the opposite corner ...Slick Solid
Let the games begin!
You didn't vote John; scared? 
BTW, addressing the entire audience, this is not a thread about headphones
BTW, addressing the entire audience, this is not a thread about headphones
You didn't vote John; scared?
BTW, addressing the entire audience, this is not a thread about headphones
I'll be honest, I don't know what the answer is and I suspect most people don't either. Hopefully there is innovation on both sides to satisfy us all. To look for a clear winner IMO is pointless, but it'll make for another round of interesting viewpoints to read.
I voted tubes...of course this depends on your definition of "innovative". I happen to think some of the Ypsilon gear and the Zanden stuff along with the newer CAT amp is pretty innovative. Looking at the new ARC gear, that also impresses me. The new Class D stuff is pretty good IF you want to drive a horn to ear bleed levels at a low price, LOL.
I voted Hybrid but for amplification. If we were talking only about preamps, it would certainly be tubes for me.
But then again......im biased!
But then again......im biased!
For innovation, it's very hard to beat what the boys at CSR and NAD are doing with Direct Digital Feedback Amplification technologies (DDFA). To me, the concept of a 'Power DAC' is the fascinating, and using it in an active speaker system would the the ultimate in cohesive system design.
It's implementation in the NAD M2 has been very well received and I'd love to see it in many more products integrating additional amp design strategies. One example of how it can deliver high-performance at low cost is the NAD 7050 network receiver, for under a grand it delivers a ton of value.
It's implementation in the NAD M2 has been very well received and I'd love to see it in many more products integrating additional amp design strategies. One example of how it can deliver high-performance at low cost is the NAD 7050 network receiver, for under a grand it delivers a ton of value.
I thought there were no advancements in analog stereo gear for over 20 years. So what does "pretty darn good stuff for sure" mean? Does that mean it's just an incremental improvement over other amps or just different sounding and more efficient?
I don't think that innovation and ultimate performance go necessarily together.
As a concept, I think that the most innovative hi-end product I've heard about is the Devialet (which, unfortunately, I've never listened too...): in any case, it might not be a nirvana experience for many.
With regards to the tubes vs SS debate, I think that a quality engineering design, either tube or SS, can bring to the ultimate experience. Indeed, I think that top-notch designs go beyond the dualism between tubes and SS: I think, for example, about amplifications from VTL, Spectral or Burmester. To me, they're awesome stuff and I don't care about the technology they employ.
As a concept, I think that the most innovative hi-end product I've heard about is the Devialet (which, unfortunately, I've never listened too...): in any case, it might not be a nirvana experience for many.
With regards to the tubes vs SS debate, I think that a quality engineering design, either tube or SS, can bring to the ultimate experience. Indeed, I think that top-notch designs go beyond the dualism between tubes and SS: I think, for example, about amplifications from VTL, Spectral or Burmester. To me, they're awesome stuff and I don't care about the technology they employ.
I don't know a single audiophile who uses digital amps, or if they try them, uses them for very long these days. So if that's the most innovative technology, empirically it hasn't followed suit.
Ayre's "new" diamond output stage is pretty tricky. Although Charlie pulled it back from the 60s I believe and integrated it with a modern, balanced fully descrete design. DarTZeel uses a similar circuit, but not balanced- but it sounds better, go figure.
In tube land, SETs are MUCH better than the tubby Cary 805s of yesteryear. For push pull, I'm not so sure much innovation has occurred in the past decade.
Ayre's "new" diamond output stage is pretty tricky. Although Charlie pulled it back from the 60s I believe and integrated it with a modern, balanced fully descrete design. DarTZeel uses a similar circuit, but not balanced- but it sounds better, go figure.
In tube land, SETs are MUCH better than the tubby Cary 805s of yesteryear. For push pull, I'm not so sure much innovation has occurred in the past decade.
A product such as the Devialet is innovative by meaning that sports, in a single small chassis, a super flexible all in one machine that, being controlled in the digital domain, can be easily customized (e.g., speaker/amp interface, cartridge/phono input pairing...) and that can be upgraded through firmware improvements (thus allowing hypothetical improvements over the time).
If such a product is not satisfactory on the long term, I have no clue (as said, I've never had the pleasure to listen to one), but the concept itself is truly innovative IMHO.
Well let's ask this question: what type of innovation would advance the art? Is it new semiconductors? New tubes manufactured? Both? Why are there so few innovations on the tube-manufacturing side? Besides the KT-120 and -150 lately, what other innovations have been made in that respect? And then there are circuits and topologies: are we still innovating, or have all circuits been explored? What about topologies? How are we pushing the art in that respect? And what amplification technology does most (if not all) of the above better, or is the most promising
Well that is difficult to answer from the layman side. Innovation can be in the engineering domain, the user domain or both. Regarding engineering, I know nothing.
Yes, I am mostly interested in the engineering domain, so that, as I mentioned in the original post, we can get "amplification with the most extreme accuracy" to get to nirvana - basically, how do we push the limits of vanishing distortion of all kinds, ultimate slew rates/rise times while keeping musicality, lowering noise, and all other engineering parameters.
There is plenty of innovation in the user-interface and usability domains, but that's not the subject of this poll.
There is plenty of innovation in the user-interface and usability domains, but that's not the subject of this poll.
True, but isn't tube manufacturing a well-defined art and process, and if any tube designer wanted to push the art they could just make their own tubes??? Why is Pass, for example, designing his own semi-conductors... Instead of having designers spend time and money trying to match someone else's tubes to tighter tolerances, why can't they just design and build their own tubes to their specs, and help advance the art?
As I posted earlier, the DDFA specifically and the category of PowerDAC seems extremely innovative and when well executed, possibly capable of addressing fundamental challenges in amplification.
I hope this thread can explore options like these vs. having the dreaded SS vs tubes argument all over again.
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