Cessaro Liszt

spiritofmusic

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Hvbias, no re Thomas Mayer. This will be sending my Audion Black Shadow SETs back to the factory and arranging w/Graeme of Audion a Kondo-style major mod of cabling/components incl. transformers to all-silver , a not inexpensive process. Not at all sure I'm going to do this since it's terribly pricey, there is no way of doing an a-b, and this route will potentially ruthlessly reveal shortcomings elsewhere in the signal chain.
I have to say in my admittedly limited experience of top class horns, only the TAD/Supravox compression drivers of the Liszts demonstrate the full potential of the horn sound - the other pairs of horns I've heard using cheaper BMS/Lowther horns sounded decidedly rough by comparison.
At this point if I go down the horns route, I'll need to be able to afford the Liszts - otherwise unlikely to change from my Zu's.
 

hvbias

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Jun 22, 2012
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Hvbias, no re Thomas Mayer. This will be sending my Audion Black Shadow SETs back to the factory and arranging w/Graeme of Audion a Kondo-style major mod of cabling/components incl. transformers to all-silver , a not inexpensive process. Not at all sure I'm going to do this since it's terribly pricey, there is no way of doing an a-b, and this route will potentially ruthlessly reveal shortcomings elsewhere in the signal chain.
I have to say in my admittedly limited experience of top class horns, only the TAD/Supravox compression drivers of the Liszts demonstrate the full potential of the horn sound - the other pairs of horns I've heard using cheaper BMS/Lowther horns sounded decidedly rough by comparison.
At this point if I go down the horns route, I'll need to be able to afford the Liszts - otherwise unlikely to change from my Zu's.

I agree with you about the roughness of Lowthers (IME these need parametric EQ'ing to sound good), though I also hear it with Zu. I have not heard the Def4. The silver transformer upgrade is a risky one, especially given the questionable resale if you don't like the sound. Personally I am a fan of Tango and Tribute.
 

spiritofmusic

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Tango and Tribute :confused:?
 

hvbias

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Tango and Tribute :confused:?

Transformer brands. Tango were never Chinese owned; a rumor started by a Romy, his source from an unnamed "US transformer winder". Hirata Tango and Tango ISO privately owned Japanese companies, both wound by the same Japanese employees using the same tooling. The current company closed last year, but they are supposed to reopen. Tribute is operated by Pieter Treurniet. Sorry for the derail, back to the Liszts!
 

LL21

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I have spent a little time with these today. First, let me say Keith is a gentlemen and an enthusiast whose passion for audio is clear. And he makes an incredibly good cup of coffee with that enormous professional grinder and espresso machine thing! Que barrista!

As for the Cessaro Liszts:

- First, as Keith will humbly say, the room does not show them off at their best. And to be fair, you need a big room I suspect to get it right. They are HUGE...making my X1s look like Alexias at first glance. Perhaps just over 7' tall? a full 36 inches front to back and at the horn...must be 30 inches or more across.

- Second, this is now the 3rd time I have heard a speaker that approaches 7' tall, weighs 1000lbs and has just enormous surface area...and in each case (Genesis 1.1s, Rockport Arrakis and now Cessaro Liszt)...scale is B-I-G and lifelike on orchestral elements.

- Third, while it was very very difficult to dissect room reflections (too many of them) from the actual bass performance of the speaker, I did feel like the upper ranges were very coherent. And that is a nice improvement in the best of the best newer speakers (Magico, Wilson, Rockport)...which is the combination of a low noise floor, fewer mechanical distortions and therefore (by necessity) a greater emphasis on ensuring a coherent presentation from horn to horn or cone to cone.

- Fourth, the Cessaro serves up its sound raw and live. Send a mellifluous signal through it and you've got candlelit beauty...send a gritty signal and the horns will show you the grit. Personally, I like that, but it makes the system match and the setup exceedingly demanding.

With a 100db sensitivity, that 'raw and live' is that much more critical an element to focus on. I walked away with the distinct impression they are even more so than my Wilsons which (I perceive) to be more forgiving (and mine are the generation which have been well described as 'clinicial' and 'scientific' in comparison with later generations of the big Wilson X speakers).

- Fifth, the bass integration I really would like to take a much closer look at. On some deep house electronic where the bass signals are incredibly fast but also deep and powerful, it was a nice test which allowed me to hear the initial bass snap before all the room echo. And I 'guesstimated' the deep propulsive bass to be quite good...excellent actually...but as seamless as the treble/mids? I honestly could not say, but I suppose one could read something out of the fact that I would highly recommend to anyone who listens to certains kinds of music that they pay careful attention to this before buying. And particularly given the fact that this speaker also seems like it will need careful setup...not because its horns or not horns...but because it is so big and so powerful...it can overpower the room and poor placement can compound this as we all know.

- Sixth, When I stood up, the treble horns went from being perfectly in front of me and the balance being even across the board...to a quite dramatic shift towards lower mids when I stoop up. So a word to those who wish to set these up...it appears the distance from which you listen to these has to be reasonably significant as well to ensure that if you stand up...you still get a more seamlessly blended sound. Do horns beam? I have heard so...but I have too little experience to say for sure...but these might have beamed at this short a distance....about 8 feet.

- Seventh...the experience was fantastic...made ever more so by its gracious host. This was (for me) a far better experience with horns (Cessaro) than when I heard their smaller brothers in HK. I learned more about big speakers/scale, about how the great designs of today are creating truly 'low noise floor products'...and also 'seamless' products (in this case mids/upper...and in a bigger room possibly across the full spectrum).

While I would probably have to rethink/retool my electronics a bit to get the CEssaro Liszts to work for me...not to mention a bigger room...I could easily imagine a few minor edits to my system and the CEssaros could be a thing of true beauty with scale, effortlessness, detail, and power.
 
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bonzo75

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Glad you got to check it out. It seems it's very different from your current tastes, it requires am entirely different type of amplification, you pay a lot of attention to the bass as per your current set up while what I react to with the Liszt is the the midrange, the way it projects out in to the room unlike anything I have heard including panels, and the fact they come from up. I also find horns faster and more flowing. I heard the bass at munich as well and there it was sounding smoother unlike in keith's room
 

Elberoth

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Did anyone of you had a chance to listen to the Liszts at High End Show in Munich ? I wonder how did you like the sound, as everytime I went there, the sound ... well, drove me out of the room with a tromendous amounts of colorations. This was my second experience like that in show conditions with Liszt speakers. I wonder, if they were not setup right, or you do not pay that much attention to this particular aspect of sound reproduction.
 

bonzo75

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I found they improved over the three days. It was a new pair and not broken in from what I understand. It sounds much better in keith's room than it did at munich, but them his room has some bass issues which weren't there at Munich
 

Jazzhead

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Did anyone of you had a chance to listen to the Liszts at High End Show in Munich ? I wonder how did you like the sound, as everytime I went there, the sound ... well, drove me out of the room with a tromendous amounts of colorations. This was my second experience like that in show conditions with Liszt speakers. I wonder, if they were not setup right, or you do not pay that much attention to this particular aspect of sound reproduction.

+1 ... Wondered what the fuss was all about , must be the set up ? I found the Hornfabrik + Atma Sphere room to have a more fuller , resolving sound with better tone and they can play LOUD !!!!!!! The dude exhibiting , with prior warning turned it up , ways up , Crickey . It immediately drove the front benches away and all but emptied the room . Took me a while to regain my hearing , nuts !
 

LL21

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Glad you got to check it out. It seems it's very different from your current tastes, it requires am entirely different type of amplification, you pay a lot of attention to the bass as per your current set up while what I react to with the Liszt is the the midrange, the way it projects out in to the room unlike anything I have heard including panels, and the fact they come from up. I also find horns faster and more flowing. I heard the bass at munich as well and there it was sounding smoother unlike in keith's room

Interesting...as with electronics (SS v Tubes) as I have heard better and better speakers that aim to 'do it all'...I have found sound that is more similar than different. This includes the four 'tweaks' I have made to my speakers to reduce vibration as well as the newer Focal tweeter which went in to replace the original one after it gave out after nearly 20 years. They have brought my speakers closer to the new references I have heard in the last year.

In general, Arrakis, Genesis had more similarities in presentation than differences (even though there sure were differences). Once scale, power, detail, midrange magic are all there for me...I suppose I find myself listening to music more than the system. And both speakers allow me to do that, in which I become less focused on differences in the system...and more interested in the differences between two artists playing the same composition.

Maybe that makes me less critical an audiophile (actually, by definition, I suppose it does)...but this for me is where I draw the line...once the speaker gets me to that point, I stop listening to the system and it is wonderful.

In any event, here are some observations about how each audition differed. Normal caveats apply...particularly different rooms/systems!! These cannot be direct comparisons because I did not compare them directly...so just observations about what I heard.

Cessaro v my X1
My trusted old X1s show their age when it comes to coherence and the sound feeling a bit mechanical. I have worked this old warhorse again and again...and my changes have really pushed this speaker much further forward imho, and I am really enjoying them. But place next to any of the speakers on this post (as well as the XLFs), and I suspect it takes but a few seconds to distinguish how old my speakers really are. I hear it more on complex orchestral than Norah Jones...but its there.

In terms of scale and power and coherence, I felt very confident the X1s in Keith's room would be perfectly fine. They are smaller, extremely adjustable in many ways. That is an important thing when one is considering how big your listening room is. I admire David Wilson for having gotten a 'super big' speaker that is just about as big a footprint as a 'regular floorstander' and high enough to give power/height/room for lots of cones...and yet short enough to fit under any ceiling...and give you the 'super reference' experience in a relatively small room. That is quite an accomplishment...8 foot listening distance to get what you can get with a big Wilson is really great.

The Liszts look well over a foot taller, a good bit deeper and a bit wider...and it really feels it when you stand next to it. And in the room, it quickly overtakes the room and (I suppose) it can cause challenges in setup. and that I definitely could feel in Keith's beautiful room. It was pretty big...but not big enough for these speakers.

The treble/mids were smoother in the Cessaros...bass was too difficult to figure out from the audition. The alacrity and speed of treble were superior to what I have at home, but not so that X1s bothered me, because the presentation of the X1 overall felt more even. The midrange of the Cessaro is beautiful but having come from SF Strads many years ago, I found the X1s when setup right were a match for the SF beauty and thus I found the midrange from both to be equally beautiful and more similar than different, just the Cessaro to be clearer, a bit more forward (and again less mechanics getting in the way).

Cessaro v Arrakis
The Arrakis setup was sublime. Snap your finger and no echo, but neither does the echo get 'sucked' into a blackhole. you just hear a 'snap'. Take that into account pls...

The Arrakis is unshakeable, unmoveable, effortless, coherent coherent coherent. We played the same Daft Punk album in both systems...and placing my fingers on the cabinet of both speakers...and if I could not hear the noise, I could tell the Cessaro was busy booming away. The Arrakis literally had my pants flapping (which I have never experienced except with subs)...and touching the side of the cabinet, I was astonished I could not feel anything...astonished.

The rest of the presentation from the Arrakis has that same effortless, unmoveable coherent quality.

In the upper ranges, the coherence of the Arrakis means that the treble and mid are equally unshakeable...and it was the first time it made me realize that (within its presentation) having a totally coherent speaker is perhaps more important than having the faster tweeter or the tightest bass...because if that fastest tweeter is matched with even a hair slower mid cone...it destroys the illusion in the room. Whereas a hare slower tweeter and mid in the same room without the benefit of hearing any other speaker...if done really well, at least for me, I just stop caring because the presentation is seamless.

And let me say, the Arrakis is super fast, and quick and, and and...but its seamlessness and unshakeability create a soundstage that is breathtaking beyond all that have come before it for me.

OK, so my preference if I had to pick blind is clear. But the Arrakis is 2x or more the price of the Cessaro, so I need to be fair and state this.

Cessaro v Genesis 1.1s (custom modd'd)
Scale of the Genesis seems greater to me...room sizes matter immensely so this is not scientific but purely guestimate. Both obviously need big rooms, and Genesis even more so. The room I heard Genesis in was big and supremely well setup again. Effortless hardly makes the grade as a description. Sublime comes to mind even in comparison with the Arrakis (which probably in an ideal world would fit me better).

There is something about panels that add 'fire' in the spark of a violin 'zing' and do so in a way that the 'zing' is actually rounded and pure...it is kinda crazy. I really dig that.

The Cessaro had the fire/spark but perhaps not quite the pure rounded element of it. The Arrakis had the rounded and pure part but my recollection is not quite that fire/spark.

Picking a personal ranking of that one element: Genesis, Arrakis, Cessaro. Purely personal.

On bass, I have heard people speak about the Genesis bass and the setup difficulties people have there....I cannot say. Being a deep house person as well as quartets, jazz, etc...I do like my bass thunderous and also super tight. The Cessaro was unable to do that in the room with the rooms limitations. The Arrakis was pitch perfect to my ear. The Genesis closer to Arrakis by far than Cessaro (in that room).
 
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LL21

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With all due respect unless you hear all the speakers in the same room,( impossible I know) using more or less the same electronics any comparisons are simply not valid.
For me horns ,well designed and implemented horns are simply closer to live music .
Keith.

Super read, Lloyd. +++1

Thanks, Gents. Keith is right...I did try to caveat strongly that these were more observations about what i heard rather than definitive speaker to speaker comparisons. so no one should (obviously) look at them as any more than such.

I did wish to make some "observations" because it is fun to discuss "experiences" about rarified audio. But that is all they are.
 

LL21

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Lloyd Hi, I didn't mean to disparage,for example I have just returned from Munich, we listened to the Cessaro Liszt for a week, the exact speaker I have here, yet the sound of the two speakers is completely different.
If you are interested in audio ,as you obviously are I would seriously consider acoustically measuring your listening room.
I guarantee the results will be enlightening.
Keith.

Thanks Keith. Good idea. I will get around to it at some point. Particularly when it comes time for the dedicated room someday.
 

caesar

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.... I am more a planar and horn guy, I find the Cessaros to be much superior to avantgardes (of which I like only the trios, not the duos). ...

These were magical because they have the best midrange I have heard, with high quality compressed TAD drivers sending the sound out into the room from a height. They are both large sounding and mellifluous, no harshness...


Very interesting, Bonzo. How are Cessaros different than the Avangardes, both in terms of sonic signature and design?
 

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