Audio Research Ref system with SF Stradivari

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Ok here it is, the verdict after a fine audition.

The listening took place since last weekend, I also managed to audition the Strads in a somewhat more larger room than the previous.
The ARC Ref system: Ref75, Ref250, Ref5SE, & RefCD9

At the first dealer's room the overall sound was not that great at all I must say. Simply because of the fact that they don't have much room. It was way too small and heavily damped, which compensated for resonances, and standing waves, but just didn't justify the price tag for the Strads. The ARC Ref250's are very nice amps, however not a huge jump from the Ref75 in terms of overall presence other than 3 times the power. Which is a good thing because owners buying the Ref75 would know that they are getting the best with the rated power.

The second room was far better by a far margin, such that it had these big windows upto the street front which were damped with heavy curtains and drapes that automatically roll down. the corners of the room were also damped with sound material & bass busters, and the perception one gets is that it looks twice as large compared to the first room. Also worth mentioning is the system/components instead of being plonked right in the middle were located on one side, allowing the focus to be more on the Strads.

Both amps drove the Strads perfectly well, the Ref75 having plenty of drive, and of course the Ref250's having an effortless presence of sound. The Strads sounded awesome, and it would definitely go lower compared to the Elipsa. However, that lower part may be too much for some, as they really need more room than the demo room itself. I could feel their potential and they weren't at full potential here. Anyway, the bass was tight and articulate, smooth midrange, and striking highs. Very fast drivers and overall matched quiet well with the Ref250's. To me the Elipsa's were still a better sounding speaker because this room was too small for Strads to open up for what they're known to do.
Obviously for those with a nice large open space, I can see how the Strads would shine!
They are also gorgeous speakers with impeccable cabinetry both the Strads and Elipsa are extremely well built.

I must say that I did audition a few years ago nearly the previous ARC Ref pre of the 5SE, the Ref250's and RefCD8. The speakers were the Magico Q5's and to me this system had it all. Great dynamics, wonderful coherency and awesome impact. Of course the price tag was far higher, but compared to Strads, I think the Strads hold it quite well together.

The real treat would be to audition the Strads with the c-j GAT and ART amps, that would be in a league of its own!
Anyway, that night as usual I listened till nearly 4am once again, enjoying that magical sweet midrange, smooth highs and awesome soundstage, which can only be delivered from none other than the Quad ESL's!

Enjoy that music!
note: (for those with a very large room, plenty of open space not closed space, and only the best amplification, yes the Strads would be a great match)
Cheers, RJ
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Great stuff...yes, I could imagine what you describe, having owned the Strads. They are wonderful under most circumstances, but to get them really right is another matter. Reviews and personal experience note the bass...for me, it was more about getting the Gryphon Antileon behind them than placement that ultimately made them really sit up and behave with proper attack. But the room is 17x33 which is a good amount of room for them to breathe. I found that ultimately there is a sense of ease with them and refinement I did not hear in the Elipsa in the same room. Detail yes, good balance yes...but ultimate refinement? In my audition, on the day, not as much. There CAN be something so ultimately refined with the Strads (and the entire Homage series) that I have preferred over their other bretheren. For something perhaps a bit less ultimately refined, in fact, I actually would save the money and go back to the Extrema.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Hey Lee, can you make the font on your equipment tag line bigger? I can hardly make out what gear and tweaks you have.

RJ-I recently purchased both the REF 5SE and the REF 75 and they don't have many hours on them yet. The meters on the REF 75 are obviously not peak reading meters. No matter how loud I'm playing music, I don't think I have ever seen the meters registering over 10 watts of power. Most of the time, they are somewhere between 2-5 watts. We will see what happens when my Nola KO speakers arrive, but I don't expect it will be much different with regards to power output.

The other thing I love about the REF 75 is the fact you only have to deal with a single matched pair of output tubes per channel. It's much easier to tightly match a single pair of output tubes than it is a quad or octet. It's easier to keep a single pair perfectly biased than it is to keep a bunch of tubes biased correctly. Oh, and it will be much cheaper to maintain the REF 75 over time with only having to buy two matched pairs of output tubes. As in all things, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me, I think the sex appeal of the REF 75 is off the charts. This is simply a gorgeous looking amplifier in a refined/industrial high-tech sort of way.

I'm going to save my comments on how the REF 5SE and REF 75 sound until a later time when they are both fully broken in and I have come to grips with what they are bringing to the table. Unlike some people, I would never base purchasing decisions or judge ultimate sound quality with a switch box in my hand with my itchy trigger finger doing rapid fire comparisons.
 
Last edited:

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
Hey Lee, can you make the font on your equipment tag line bigger? I can hardly make out what gear and tweaks you have.

What does it look like on your screen? I was trying to shrink it to half the normal size, but I could not figure it out because it always seemed bigger not smaller, so I put it back to 'normal' with no specified font.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
what does it look like on your screen? i was trying to shrink it to half the normal size, but i could not figure it out because it always seemed bigger not smaller, so i put it back to 'normal' with no specified font.

huge!
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
(...) I must say that I did audition a few years ago nearly the previous ARC Ref pre of the 5SE, the Ref250's and RefCD8. The speakers were the Magico Q5's and to me this system had it all. Great dynamics, wonderful coherency and awesome impact. Of course the price tag was far higher, but compared to Strads, I think the Strads hold it quite well together.

Did you feel that the REF250 were powerful enough for the Q5's?

BTW, what was the cabling (power and signal) used in the demos using the SFs?
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
G'day mates,

First of all to Lee: the font is fine, although I must admit it is somewhat big, but looks good especially with that c-j GAT, who cares about the rest of it... Gryphon yea ok, Wilson yea ok & so on... but hey the GAT man! someday... must have

Mep: yes the REF 5SE and REF 75 will take some time to run in no doubt. And when they're ready you will definitely know. What speakers are you using by the way?
I really do want to try the REF75 on my Quads one day before I decide on the c-j ART.

Reference to the ARC Ref 250 driving the Magico Q5's, they were more than adequate because the room was not big at all, just average and also had few other magico's in there. This was sometime back in Singapore during one of my trips. All cabling was cardas from top to bottom.

Cheers until later, RJ
 

Big Dog RJ

Well-Known Member
Feb 2, 2012
1,242
463
1,155
Melbourne
Hey Lee, can you make the font on your equipment tag line bigger? I can hardly make out what gear and tweaks you have.

RJ-I recently purchased both the REF 5SE and the REF 75 and they don't have many hours on them yet. The meters on the REF 75 are obviously not peak reading meters. No matter how loud I'm playing music, I don't think I have ever seen the meters registering over 10 watts of power. Most of the time, they are somewhere between 2-5 watts. We will see what happens when my Nola KO speakers arrive, but I don't expect it will be much different with regards to power output.

The other thing I love about the REF 75 is the fact you only have to deal with a single matched pair of output tubes per channel. It's much easier to tightly match a single pair of output tubes than it is a quad or octet. It's easier to keep a single pair perfectly biased than it is to keep a bunch of tubes biased correctly. Oh, and it will be much cheaper to maintain the REF 75 over time with only having to buy two matched pairs of output tubes. As in all things, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For me, I think the sex appeal of the REF 75 is off the charts. This is simply a gorgeous looking amplifier in a refined/industrial high-tech sort of way.

I'm going to save my comments on how the REF 5SE and REF 75 sound until a later time when they are both fully broken in and I have come to grips with what they are bringing to the table. Unlike some people, I would never base purchasing decisions or judge ultimate sound quality with a switch box in my hand with my itchy trigger finger doing rapid fire comparisons.

Hi again mate,

Of all of what's been said about ARC systems being non-reliable etc... this new range of Reference quality gear should hopefully get them some respect. The KT120 is an extraordinary tube. With my Conrad Johnson MV60SE, it took c-j two decades of research to perfect the design. Because it had to out-perform the previous model, MV55 and replace the premier 11A, it's circuitry is outstanding. It uses a triode amplifier input stage and high powered driver stage in parallel sections and then onto an output stage with just a single pair of KT120's per channel. This particular design enables the amplifier to deliver high current into reactive loads, thus mates very well with electrostats.

The Ref75 is similar and also has just one pair of KT120's rather than a bunch of them. Obviously this will deliver more sonic purity with the right speaker load. If you are used to the sound of the 6550's, just wait till you get used to the KT120, you would be wondering how the hec did you ever enjoy the 6550...
I also preferred the Ref75 compared to the Ref150 which also uses KT120's. The Ref150 is a great amp, but did not have that overall special warmth compared to the Ref75.

Regarding the meters check what the owner's manual states. Because during my auditions I learnt that these meters are for biasing as well as output meters. Although the amp can deliver really loud peaks, most of the time these just seem to sit around 10/20w or so, sometimes close to 45w and this is nearly "ear bleeding" levels. Therefore, if the meters are reading just a few watts, this can be true! This is a real amp that can provide a solid 75watts of pure muscle with plenty of drive, you'll be surprised! All of this basically boils down to a well executed circuit design incorporating KT120's.

I have had so many amps at home for comparison, and still nothing beats the overall presence of a well designed KT120 tube amp. I do know that the ARTsa series from c-j with KT120's is superb because I did try it out; but before I jump into that arena I must try the Ref75 with my stats first. The Art amp is going for nearly 20grand, whereas the Ref75 is just half that! I think there is more value in the Ref75, the only draw back being it accepts only XLR inputs and no RCA type. Hence, I would have to change my preamp as well, and this is going to involve more spending...

I personally think the KT120 is by far the best power beam tube one can possibly have in a push-pull configuration. I have owned so many tube amplifiers having either KT88, KT90, EL34, or 6550's, the KT120 is far superior. There is a new series just out which is the KT150, but is still in testing. Would certainly be interesting to see how it holds up with the KT120.

Do let us know how your new ARC REF system is sounding, and how those KT120's are going. They are very special indeed.
Cheers mate and enjoy your music!
RJ
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
RJ-I have previously written about my thoughts on the KT-120 vs. the 6550/KT-88 family of tubes and you and I are in agreement. I have also heard the KT-150 tube and IMO it's another stunner based on the short time I was able to spend with it when I reviewed the Raven Audio Silhouette mono amps.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
I think there is more value in the Ref75, the only draw back being it accepts only XLR inputs and no RCA type. Hence, I would have to change my preamp as well, and this is going to involve more spending...

RJ
That is a BIG problem for a lot of people. The inability of the amp to also accept a single ended RCA is something that makes no sense to me. I asked Dave Gordon at ARC about this issue and frankly he couldn't give me a good answer as to why ARC has gone this way with many of their amps. It sure limits the number of preamps that one is going to be able to use with the amp(s) ( unless you use a jumper...who wants to do that?? )
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
(...) With my Conrad Johnson MV60SE, it took c-j two decades of research to perfect the design. Because it had to out-perform the previous model, MV55 and replace the premier 11A, it's circuitry is outstanding. It uses a triode amplifier input stage and high powered driver stage in parallel sections and then onto an output stage with just a single pair of KT120's per channel. This particular design enables the amplifier to deliver high current into reactive loads, thus mates very well with electrostats.

Although I also love the 60SE I think there is a mistake in your description - the paralleled sections are used only in the input triode. Do you have experience with the KT120 in the LP275M?

BTW, the best ARC amplifiers I have ever found for electrostats were the the old VT150SE that used a cathode coupling transformer winding with partial balanced feedback to the grids. They did wonders with ESL63. But I have not tried the new REF250 with them.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
20,806
4,698
2,790
Portugal
That is a BIG problem for a lot of people. The inability of the amp to also accept a single ended RCA is something that makes no sense to me. I asked Dave Gordon at ARC about this issue and frankly he couldn't give me a good answer as to why ARC has gone this way with many of their amps. It sure limits the number of preamps that one is going to be able to use with the amp(s) ( unless you use a jumper...who wants to do that?? )

Some old series of ARC balanced amplifiers with XLR only inputs could not be used in SE, as they did not have an input inverter for the "pull" phase. As far as I know it is not the case of the REF75 or 150, that can be used in SE. As far as I know using a good quality XLR - RCA adapter, such as the Cardas ones does not introduce any quality loss. But I have tried using a cj preamplifier with the REF150 and did not like the result - also did not like using an ARC preamp with a cj power amplifier.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
That is a BIG problem for a lot of people. The inability of the amp to also accept a single ended RCA is something that makes no sense to me. I asked Dave Gordon at ARC about this issue and frankly he couldn't give me a good answer as to why ARC has gone this way with many of their amps. It sure limits the number of preamps that one is going to be able to use with the amp(s) ( unless you use a jumper...who wants to do that?? )

How about the fact that ARC designed the amp to be a truly balanced design and they want it to be used that way? And since all of ARC's top tier linestages are truly balanced as well, horror of horrors, they would actually like you to use one of their linestages as well. There are a few companies that refuse to go balanced like CJ and Lamm for instance. One could flip the question around and say why shouldn't all preamps and amps have balanced inputs and outputs? Of course I know the answer to the question. Running all of your gear SE is a choice that people make because they either believe in the philosophy of SE design (less circuitry is better) or they just like the way it sounds better than they like balanced gear they have heard.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
How about the fact that ARC designed the amp to be a truly balanced design and they want it to be used that way? And since all of ARC's top tier linestages are truly balanced as well, horror of horrors, they would actually like you to use one of their linestages as well. There are a few companies that refuse to go balanced like CJ and Lamm for instance. One could flip the question around and say why shouldn't all preamps and amps have balanced inputs and outputs? Of course I know the answer to the question. Running all of your gear SE is a choice that people make because they either believe in the philosophy of SE design (less circuitry is better) or they just like the way it sounds better than they like balanced gear they have heard.

Ok, but ARC could supply both single ended and balanced connections....like they did in the past.That way a much larger population of potential consumers could buy their amp without having to do away with their current preamp. ( like RJ is commenting on).
I understand that ARC would like to sell you a new preamp as well, BUT is that the best way to go about doing that. Personally, the fact that the amp cannot accept a single ended input (BTW, micro, I'm pretty sure that a good quality XLR-RCA adapter will introduce SQ loss), puts it at a disadvantage to me.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
I'm sure ARC is well aware of potential lost sales to people who only have preamps with SE outputs. I would assume that ARC felt that adding SE inputs to their REF 75 was going to degrade the sound and they chose not to compromise the design.
 

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
6,129
181
458
La Jolla, Calif USA
I'm sure ARC is well aware of potential lost sales to people who only have preamps with SE outputs. I would assume that ARC felt that adding SE inputs to their REF 75 was going to degrade the sound and they chose not to compromise the design.

Actually, that's not what Dave Gordon told me. He stated that he didn't think there were that many people who were still using preamps that were utilizing only single ended outputs. I would think that ARC would be very concerned about losing potential sales...at least IMHO if not, they should be.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Actually, that's not what Dave Gordon told me. He stated that he didn't think there were that many people who were still using preamps that were utilizing only single ended outputs. I would think that ARC would be very concerned about losing potential sales...at least IMHO if not, they should be.

Obviously they are not concerned. They stuck to their guns as they have done for years with other amplifiers that were strictly balanced.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing