I heard my first 200k vinyl system today

MylesBAstor · Apr 9, 2014

Atmasphere said:
Its all in the setup. A poor setup will have more ticks and pops than one that is done right. Setup is more important than cost IME.

That's what I was going to say. Setup, geometry and linear vs pivoted arms. I think those who had the opportunity to play with the ET, Rockport or Air Tangent arms had more than one experience with a record that looked trashed yet unlike a pivoted arm, played perfectly.

Also, I think the stylus profile is huge consideration eg. the are some profiles that are going to get "deeper" into the groove and play virgin areas of the groove. And we shouldn't also forget record cleaning either and getting as Bruce Maier showed backed in the '80s, removing those proteinaceous remnants of bacterial cell walls stuck to the groove wall.

Young Skywalker · Apr 9, 2014

Currently the best bearings of any arm made are in the Triplanar- it has the hardest bearings made worldwide and also are some of the smallest, giving the arm very low 'sticktion' from the bearings.

This information is out of date I'm afraid. However, the Triplanar is a very good arm choice for any ZYX cartridge.

garylkoh · Apr 9, 2014

So.... if I were the OP and wanted a few reference recordings on vinyl to acquire and evaluate vinyl playback systems, what would you recommend?

They must be available (re-issues or original pressings that don't cost an arm and a leg), sonically excellent and not boring musically. They must show off what vinylphiles prefer about analog - emotion, "meat on the bones", "flow", etc. Please note that this is NOT intended to denigrate digital in any way. In fact, some of my favorite LPs were recorded in digital.

Here are my suggestions:

Jazz - Swiss Movement: Les McCann and Eddie Harris. This was the result of a spontaneous pairing during the Montreux Jazz Festival 1969. I think that it's one of the most exciting and exhilarating jazz performances ever captured. The musicians have tremendous fun and this comes across in spades on the opening track "Compared to What".

Big Band - Les Brown and his Band of Renown Goes Direct to Disk. This is probably the most easily available Direct to Disk album in existence that is any good. Every track is excellent, fun, and hugely dynamic (almost as good as the extremely expensive M&K 'For Duke').

Modern Electronica - Yello: Touch Yello. An album I've demo'ed at almost every show in the past 3 years. It was originally released only on CD, but a 2-LP album was released in Europe in 2010 which was (in my preference) much better. The first track 'The Expert' is the definitive test for bass definition - one that does not (in my system) show as well on the CD. However, a high-rez rip of the album does it for me (in my system).

Female Vocals (audiophile music) - Rickie Lee Jones: Girl at her Volcano. There are various excellent re-issues from the talented Ms Jones, but I think that 'Under the Boardwalk' (Side 2 Track 1) is one of the best examples of her craft (and not over-played unlike her first album and "Pop Pop").

I'll stop here and see what others recommend

MylesBAstor · Apr 9, 2014

Young Skywalker said:
This information is out of date I'm afraid. However, the Triplanar is a very good arm choice for any ZYX cartridge.

So you're saying that bearings are the only consideration for mating cartridges to arms?

rockitman · Apr 9, 2014

Young Skywalker said:
This information is out of date I'm afraid. However, the Triplanar is a very good arm choice for any ZYX cartridge.

I prefer unipivot designs over fixed bearing like the triplanar. I don't care how good their bearings are.

Young Skywalker · Apr 9, 2014

MylesBAstor said:
So you're saying that bearings are the only consideration for mating cartridges to arms?

Not at all. The vinyl playback chain is all about energy transfer, the correlation between cartridge design and tonearm bearing/s is but one element of a much larger picture, but that does not reduce its importance.

Careful examination of many commercially available turntables, tonearms, cartridges, and so-called isolation platforms/pucks/cones/etc suggests that most designs are concerned more about aesthetics and creating a point of difference for marketing purposes rather than using science to address very well known problems. My perspective as a scientist who lives only for the music.

Young Skywalker · Apr 9, 2014

rockitman said:
I prefer unipivot designs over fixed bearing like the triplanar. I don't care how good their bearings are.

Unipivots solve some problems but they are not without their flaws. As Einstein said, "things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler". I have come to the conclusion that unipivots fall into the latter category. I am yet to see a very expensive unipivot tonearm which displays any real innovation beyond the most basic of such designs (I am talking about how the design addresses the physics behind the task at hand). This is probably why the VPI tonearms represent such excellent value for those on a limited budget.

MylesBAstor · Apr 9, 2014

Young Skywalker said:
Not at all. The vinyl playback chain is all about energy transfer, the correlation between cartridge design and tonearm bearing/s is but one element of a much larger picture, but that does not reduce its importance.

Careful examination of many commercially available turntables, tonearms, cartridges, and so-called isolation platforms/pucks/cones/etc suggests that most designs are concerned more about aesthetics and creating a point of difference for marketing purposes rather than using science to address very well known problems. My perspective as a scientist who lives only for the music.

Yes exactly. And perhaps the biggest change is the design of the arm tube itself and reducing the number of resonance points to one and then damping that resonance point. Older arms were a nightmare on analog street.

The bottom line is that compromises always need to be made and it's how the designer balances them out that separates the men from the boys. Not to mention, I don't see how anyone can make a conclusion about what's correct unless they compare the LP with the tape. One can be awfully surprised here about what's right and wrong.

I'm not sure what isolation platforms you've played with but Kevin Tellekamp's SRA products are far from bandaid approach to resonance control.

DaveyF · Apr 10, 2014

I prefer William Firebaugh's solution to the arm bearing problem, which I think is still ingenious even today. The WTA Black arm that I use has no bearing noise...it doesn't have a bearing, and no unipivot shake...because it doesn't have a point to pivot around.
Plus, I feel the silicone dampening works great with all cartridges. Which is why AJ Conti uses silicone dampening with his Vector Tonearms among others. YMMV.

Alrainbow · Apr 10, 2014

Ok I have a dumb question . I remeber years back when I had a turn table. It did not have a tone arm persay.
It was a Panasonic I think. Anyway the arm moved sideways. Do they have TT like this anymore ? Also there was a
TT without any cartridge at all it was a laser light . As I am sure these TT stink and of no great audio value. But I am interested in input from others here. Also Myles called and was kind enough to share some time to show me
Some really good vinyl and his speakers should be something I will love weather digital or vinyl. So it's great all around
. I will,post things fitear this happens. Again thanks to all here.

Al

puroagave · Apr 10, 2014

Alrainbow said:
Ok I have a dumb question . I remeber years back when I had a turn table. It did not have a tone arm persay.
It was a Panasonic I think. Anyway the arm moved sideways. Do they have TT like this anymore ? Also there was a
TT without any cartridge at all it was a laser light . As I am sure these TT stink and of no great audio value. But I am interested in input from others here. Also Myles called and was kind enough to share some time to show me
Some really good vinyl and his speakers should be something I will love weather digital or vinyl. So it's great all around
. I will,post things fitear this happens. Again thanks to all here.

Al

you're taking about a linear or tangential tracking tone arm. they're still around the kuzma airline being one, ive owned the ET2 and versa arms. imo I don't think you have to go that route to get great sound, there are plenty of pivoted arms that fit the bill.

the laser TT was made by finial technology in the states, they're now made in japan. shark fin soup eater has one, look for his post. Unless they changed radically I wasn't enamored with the sound of the original - but hey, they may have improved.

mep · Apr 10, 2014

I'm trying to decide what I think about this thread. The only thing that comes to mind right now is taking a cave man to NY city and trying to explain everything to him as he looks around in puzzlement at what he is seeing. Hopefully Al will stop by Myles' place and hear what the potential of vinyl is, but I don't hold out much hope that Al is going to jump off the cliff and become invested in vinyl in any meaningful way.

Atmasphere · Apr 10, 2014

BruceD said:
Allow me to state thank you to Ralph(Atmasphere) for the concise and enlightening post #31-- kudos my man!

Just as aside with the emphasis on the RF side of the MC/Phono and loading criteria--what degradation is being caused --if any by the proliferation of WiFi devices now present in our homes

Wouldn't this be affecting the Analog--in this case--sonics some way-- detrimentally maybe?

Than you

BruceD

The short answer is 'no'. The long answer is a lot like that as well

which is something like: such a phono section would not survive the marketplace- it would put the manufacturer out of business.

Young Skywalker said:
This information is out of date I'm afraid. However, the Triplanar is a very good arm choice for any ZYX cartridge.

OK- I oversimplified the situation.

Given that there is only one bearing manufacturer in the world that makes a bearing that hard, the information is not out of date at all. Triplanar is the only tone arm manufacturer that is able to use that bearing as they got grandfathered in before 911. They got investigated by the Department of Homeland Security because they were using more of these bearings that Boeing Aerospace.

There are two variables with tone arm bearings- size and hardness.

There are of course bearings that use jewels, but the problem here is that the bearings fail in short order (usually during assembly- if a jeweled bearing is overtightened, it is also damaged). And that is what this bears upon, if you will pardon the expression

SME solved the bearing failure problem by using larger bearings, but that got them more sticktion. Empire solved the jeweled bearing problem by making sure that they did not tighten the bearings for zero slop- which of course means that the arm will editorialize as the bearings are loose.

By going with the hardest non-jeweled bearings made, Triplanar solved the issue of bearing failure that all jeweled bearings suffer and also solved the failure problem that metal bearings always have when they are too small. This allowed them to have the lowest sticktion of any arm- over a period of years rather than months or hours.

If the bearings have any slop then the arm is not held in locus; the resulting error will be a coloration imposed. Try building a proper turntable and you find this sort of stuff out pretty quick. For those that are mechanically minded, the problem of a turntable and tonearm is similar to the handlebars of a motorbike coupled with the rear swing arm- any slop between and the bike will have dangerous handling problems.

Alrainbow · Apr 10, 2014

Hello this is al and why the snyded remark.
Maybe I am wrong in taking offense but that is just what's wrong in
Hi end audio. I am smart enough to ask questions
And know enough to keep listening until statisfied.
And what amount of money will make me qualified
How rude your Statment is and your are fine in posting it.
Well after speaking to Myles I feel far better about my posibilities
But not with your comment. I need a better vocabulary to describe the kind self serving egotistical person you are.
If I am wrong in understanding you I am sorry
But if i am correct F off please
Al

Brian Walsh · Apr 10, 2014

Atmasphere said:
Its all in the setup. A poor setup will have more ticks and pops than one that is done right. Setup is more important than cost IME.

I agree.

We will be highlighting the setup tools we use at the AXPONA show coming up later this month.

mep · Apr 10, 2014

Al-Please, where is your sense of humor? I asked you before how much you wanted to invest in a table/arm/cartridge/phono section and I never received a response or else I missed it. I have no idea of what you are looking for and what you hope to accomplish. It sounds at times like you already have your mind made up and you really only want to hear a good setup so you can hear the differences between CDs and vinyl and see what the fuss is about. I still don't understand the title of this thread because you didn't come close to hearing a $200k vinyl system, you listened to a $5k vinyl system with a worn-out LP. And your comment that prompted my caveman comparison that put you into a snit was this:

Anyway the arm moved sideways. Do they have TT like this anymore ?

That would be like me asking digital people if they still made those small, round, shiny thingies that you stick in a machine's mouth and music comes out.

Maybe I'm the only one on this thread who isn't clear about what your intentions are. Are you seriously interested in buying a vinyl setup or are you just serious that you want to hear a good setup? If you are serious about wanting to buy a vinyl rig, again, how much are you looking to spend? I haven't gotten it figured out yet and if everyone else on this thread does, I'll just put my dunce cap on and go sit in the corner for awhile.

zztop7 · Apr 10, 2014

mep said:
I'll just put my dunce cap on and go sit in the corner for awhile.

My wife would find that adorable

.

zz.

jazdoc · Apr 10, 2014

Al,

I assume positive intent and believe that mep was trying to offer useful advice; albeit in his sometimes cheeky manner

In all seriousness, before you begin a quixotic analog quest; my advice would be to stop and ponder a few questions...
1. Analog is the antithesis of set and forget. Do you have the time, energy and patience to learn the zen of turntable set up? As other posters on this thread have alluded; the difference between 'close' and 'spot on' is where the magic happens.
2. Ticks and pops obviously limit your ability to enjoy pre-recorded music. Do you have the time, patience, energy and finances to chase pristine vinyl pressings?
3. Is listening to music on the go important to you? Vinyl is not readily portable.
4. Would the not insignificant investment to obtain a vinyl rig (turntable, arm, cartridge, phono stage and cables) that outperforms a modest digital rig be better spent on high quality digital software?

Alrainbow · Apr 10, 2014

That dunce ca p porn movie I have not seen as yet. But I will keep looking for it.

A little about me will answer some questions.
First off I already have digital media use it on a daily basis . Or at least for now.

I have two speaker rigs and a few headphones and CIEM,S.
I listen to a wide variety of genre .
I do this on trains , while running , at home or office.
Analog is a new idea I have , and as with all things audio it's a learning curve .
As with digital I have a msb stack with all the bells and whistles . So is the analog everyone talks about better and if so how.
That is what this adventure is about. And if it is better then the TT and cartridge with phono amp begins .

I hope this helps people help me.

Al

Atmasphere · Apr 10, 2014

jazdoc said:
Al,

4. Would the not insignificant investment to obtain a vinyl rig (turntable, arm, cartridge, phono stage and cables) that outperforms a modest digital rig be better spent on high quality digital software?

A Technics 1200 with a Grado Gold can do that... That leaves a nice sum for the preamp. If you run the cable balanced (i.e. have a balanced input on the phono section) then you don't have to spend a lot on the cable. A proper balanced setup has good immunity from cable artifacts- that is what the system is for. Phono cartridges are a naturally balanced source.

I heard my first 200k vinyl system today

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