Really now? I know of no one involved in the design of high-end products on the market today that uses the words "harmonic spray" in any conversation or interview. But then I don't hear other people talking about "signal wiggle" either. Are you seriously trying to say that all stereo systems retrieve the same amount of information regardless of cost and quality as long as the spec sheet shows they are 'good enough?' If that was true, there would be no high-end and everyone would save their hard-earned money and buy the latest Bose Lifestyle system and be done with it because I'm sure their specs are just dandy.
I heard my first 200k vinyl system today
- Thread starter Alrainbow
- Start date
Really now? I know of no one involved in the design of high-end products on the market today that uses the words "harmonic spray" in any conversation or interview. But then I don't hear other people talking about "signal wiggle" either. Are you seriously trying to say that all stereo systems retrieve the same amount of information regardless of cost and quality as long as the spec sheet shows they are 'good enough?' If that was true, there would be no high-end and everyone would save their hard-earned money and buy the latest Bose Lifestyle system and be done with it because I'm sure their specs are just dandy.
Hello Mep
Sure I will argue it. You have never heard of masking as in how MP3's work as an example. Just because you have a Ah Ha moment doesn't mean a damn thing beyond the fact you had an Ah Ha moment. You mean to tell me you have never heard something new on one system and once hearing it you were not able to hear it on your other system where you didn't notice it before??
I have 3 different set-ups and depending on what I am listening too I have had that happen many times and also when using headphones where you can hear subtle details that you swear are not there only to go back to your system and hear them plain as day. With complex music it is very easy to miss things and then hear them on a second or third listen. It all depends on what you happen to be listening for and how attentive you are when listening.
When you come up with a definition of what a higher-resolution system that we can all agree on let me know.
Rob
So if you have an album you have heard a 1000 times and you think you know it like the back of your hand and then you hear the same album on someone else's system and hear something new (to you), you can always replicate that on your own system as long as you know it's there even if your own system never let you know it was there before?
Hello Mep
The point I am making is you can't just assume that it's not there on the other system. The only way to know for sure is to go back and have another listen on the system where you didn't hear it. FWIW with the systems we own I would expect for that to maybe happen only with very low level detail like reverb decays as an example. I have never personally heard something on one system and not be able to hear it on the other one. I am talking about harmonies and instruments in the back round that don't jump out at you. With multi-track recordings there are all kinds of subtle things layered in depending on the artist and the recording.
Rob
The point I am making is you can't just assume that it's not there on the other system. The only way to know for sure is to go back and have another listen on the system where you didn't hear it. FWIW with the systems we own I would expect for that to maybe happen only with very low level detail like reverb decays as an example. I have never personally heard something on one system and not be able to hear it on the other one. I am talking about harmonies and instruments in the back round that don't jump out at you. With multi-track recordings there are all kinds of subtle things layered in depending on the artist and the recording.
Rob
Hello Mep
The point I am making is you can't just assume that it's not there on the other system. The only way to know for sure is to go back and have another listen on the system where you didn't hear it. FWIW with the systems we own I would expect for that to maybe happen only with very low level detail like reverb decays as an example. I have never personally heard something on one system and not be able to hear it on the other one. I am talking about harmonies and instruments in the back round that don't jump out at you. With multi-track recordings there are all kinds of subtle things layered in depending on the artist and the recording.
Rob
Of course not. But that still doesn't make MEP's statement wrong. Take reading a novel and someone points out a meaning you hadn't thought of. Yeah it was always there but it took someone else to lead you to the meaning. No different with an audio system. You missed the thought for a reason. And even if it's there, is it still rendered in the same way?
But are you telling us an entry level DAC or turntable resolves as much as a SOTA unit???
As far as differences. Get a copy of the ATR pressing of La Folia and listen for the car horn beeping at the end of side two. Many systems miss it entirely, some you have to listen intently, others you can hear the faint beeps but only on the best can you sit back and listen and not only hear the faint beep but actually hear it's two beeps. I can give tons more example from numerous albums and tapes. Just listen to Kenny Burrell Midnight Blue and only on the best systems can you hear them talking. Or how some systems will get the decay of a triangle but not the shimmer. And so on and so on.
Hello Myles
Are you making my point for me
So for my extra 100K I get the ability to count the number of beeps from a car horn outside the recording hall??
I understand what you are saying I have berylium drivers in my main stereo set-up that cost more than my Revel Performa 3 206's in my upstairs stereo. I can hear the difference between the two in exactly the same way you describe the beeps. It's the subtle low level detail that to me makes the most difference between the two systems.
That said I am not IMHO opinion missing any meaningful music content with the Revels. It all comes back to this.
What do we listen for?? Is it the ensembo playing or are we picking apart each instrument or both depending on our mood??
I didn't say he was wrong, just don't jump to conclusions based on hearing something for the first time no matter what the circumstances are.
Rob
Are you making my point for me
So for my extra 100K I get the ability to count the number of beeps from a car horn outside the recording hall??
I understand what you are saying I have berylium drivers in my main stereo set-up that cost more than my Revel Performa 3 206's in my upstairs stereo. I can hear the difference between the two in exactly the same way you describe the beeps. It's the subtle low level detail that to me makes the most difference between the two systems.
That said I am not IMHO opinion missing any meaningful music content with the Revels. It all comes back to this.
What do we listen for?? Is it the ensembo playing or are we picking apart each instrument or both depending on our mood??
I didn't say he was wrong, just don't jump to conclusions based on hearing something for the first time no matter what the circumstances are.
Rob
Hello Myles
Are you making my point for me
So for my extra 100K I get the ability to count the number of beeps from a car horn outside the recording hall??
I understand what you are saying I have berylium drivers in my main stereo set-up that cost more than my Revel Performa 3 206's in my upstairs stereo. I can hear the difference between the two in exactly the same way you describe the beeps. It's the subtle low level detail that to me makes the most difference between the two systems.
That said I am not IMHO opinion missing any meaningful music content with the Revels. It all comes back to this.
What do we listen for?? Is it the ensembo playing or are we picking apart each instrument or both depending on our mood??
I didn't say he was wrong, just don't jump to conclusions based on hearing something for the first time no matter what the circumstances are.
Rob
I think what we listen for, type of music, etc. is too large to even discuss in a forum.
Rob no one is telling you to spend more money. But there is a point where there are levels of detail retrieval that a cheaper system will not give you. Before I spent the money on a far better DAC there was just so much to hear on hundreds of cd,s
And 6 TB of hi Rez and DSD . Now that I broke down and spent the money where there was glare there is levels of detail and ambience I did know was there. And the same must be true of TT and cart too. I have many headphones and CIEM,S. They all present the music different and some give details others do not. But this is not what I mean and EQ does reveal some details at the expense of everything else . It's not just a car horn we are listening for. Even the pink Floyd Myles played had details of the clocks and rings like I never heard before . How about dynamics. Better equipment gives you far better dynamics . It's not just loud and blaring like lesser equipment gives you. At some point you have to agree.
Al
And 6 TB of hi Rez and DSD . Now that I broke down and spent the money where there was glare there is levels of detail and ambience I did know was there. And the same must be true of TT and cart too. I have many headphones and CIEM,S. They all present the music different and some give details others do not. But this is not what I mean and EQ does reveal some details at the expense of everything else . It's not just a car horn we are listening for. Even the pink Floyd Myles played had details of the clocks and rings like I never heard before . How about dynamics. Better equipment gives you far better dynamics . It's not just loud and blaring like lesser equipment gives you. At some point you have to agree.
Al
When Fremer was in our room last November, he stayed about twenty minutes playing a number of his demanding tracks from his USB stick. While we don't usually play as loud as he did (during show hours
), I'd say our selections are at least equally demanding. At the end of his visit I must admit that I was relieved that the system held together. The guy knows how to push a system without being stupid or irresponsible about it.
I've heard systems in which massed strings sound sort of like a bunch of violins. In the best systems, those same massed strings sound like violins, violas and cellos at Boston Symphony Hall. The question is: How much is that worth to the listener?
Please tell us what high-end component is simply designed by measurements and then released???
There's nothing, zero, nada that happens between laying out a speaker design in the virtual world and the final product? There's no listening sessions where crossovers are tweaked, parts selected, etc. that have no measureable effects. There's no voicing of a speaker? And specifically what measurements are being used? THD and harmonic spray? ) All I can say is wow. You must be kidding?
And actually yes. That's what makes high-end Tom. Every companies product has a characteristic sound that is the designer's signature. Why? Because no design is perfect and involves certain compromises. Julian from Verity just said exactly the same thing. Or do you think everything sounds alike and like real music?
Come on, Myles. Every amp and preamp is just straight wire with gain. They don't make a sound of their own.
Speakers are different. The designer has to select cabinet materials and driver configurations based on looks or something. He would never voice them by listening.
I have to assume you don't go to shows. This statement is blatantly false.
The problem here is knowing what to measure. The standard measurements that Stereophile uses do not tell the whole story. One thing is sure, if you can't tell what the equipment sounds like from the specs, then the specs are pointless- they are not telling you what you need to know. Unfortunately this is all too common- hardly anyone can tell what a particular piece will sound like from the specs. This is because the audio industry in general does not pay much heed to human hearing/perceptual rules. Yet those rules are the foundation of all things audio. Weird world we live in.
I'm not sure if I know of any designers of electronics that 'voice' their equipment. Perhaps you could name one?
Depending on the distortion, 0.005% can be audible and 2% may not. This question is fundamental to understanding how the ear translates distortion into tonality, what distortions it is sensitive to and what distortions it is not.
Moderators can we move these posts to another thread since Tom has decided to tale Al's thread totally OT???
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