Which speakers have the best off axis performance?

dallasjustice · Apr 4, 2014

microstrip said:
Well, my fault. I had got the idea that your statement had some strong and more extended support. I saw now it is just based in a few measurements and few cases.

Well, Nyal and I have also measured my YGs as well at 1m on axis with my earthworks m23. The right and left measure amazingly linear and matched at frequencies uneffected by the room boundaries. I know that Nyal has measured other customers' YGs both on and off axis. He says they measure fantastic. I am not interested in proving anything to anyone. I am just interested in sharing my experiences with those interested.

Have you ever measured your Wison speakers?

c1ferrari · Apr 5, 2014

Nyal,

Have you explored mixing and/or mastering loudspeakers in the pro realm?

microstrip · Apr 5, 2014

dallasjustice said:
Well, Nyal and I have also measured my YGs as well at 1m on axis with my earthworks m23. The right and left measure amazingly linear and matched at frequencies uneffected by the room boundaries. I know that Nyal has measured other customers' YGs both on and off axis. He says they measure fantastic. I am not interested in proving anything to anyone. I am just interested in sharing my experiences with those interested.

Have you ever measured your Wison speakers?

And we appreciate your experience and comments. However in order to be appreciated we need the details. For fun, I have measured many speakers in my room - I have stored a few hundreds of REW measurements. The Aida's were some of the nicest looking, I only carried a few with the Alexia. However I has never able to establish any serious correlation between the measurements and sound quality - the position for better sound was not the best measuring one. And the worst measuring speaker is one of the best sounding - the SoundLab A1 Px measurements in my room look really horrible!

BTW, perhaps someone knowing better YG than me can help on this matter, but as far as I have read Floyd Toole does not like the D'Appolito alignment - I learned about it when I was searching about the Wilson Audio Maxx3's - because of what it does to the vertical off axis dispersion. Do your YG's have separate crossover circuits for each medium?

dallasjustice · Apr 5, 2014

microstrip said:
And we appreciate your experience and comments. However in order to be appreciated we need the details. For fun . . .

I agree. This hobby is fun and we all love music. Nobody on this forum needs to do anything. You refer to "We". Are you moderating this thread? On whose behalf do you speak? I'll continue to participate here as long as it's still fun and a free exchange.

As to MTM design: I think lateral off-axis is most important in most rooms. However, the Stereophile measurements show YG has good off axis vertically too. I grant you it's not as good as lateral.

As to measurements: They do matter, if done right. I've been to the YG factory in Colorado and have seen Yoav's operation. He has a large forklift and a mic setup for measuring ALL speakers leaving his high tech factory. If Stereophile measured YGs, then you could expect that all of them will measure exactly the same way. I strongly believe these type of measurements directly relate to subjective enjoyment.

Michael.

Phelonious Ponk · Apr 5, 2014

microstrip said:
And we appreciate your experience and comments. However in order to be appreciated we need the details. For fun, I have measured many speakers in my room - I have stored a few hundreds of REW measurements. The Aida's were some of the nicest looking, I only carried a few with the Alexia. However I has never able to establish any serious correlation between the measurements and sound quality - the position for better sound was not the best measuring one. And the worst measuring speaker is one of the best sounding - the SoundLab A1 Px measurements in my room look really horrible!

BTW, perhaps someone knowing better YG than me can help on this matter, but as far as I have read Floyd Toole does not like the D'Appolito alignment - I learned about it when I was searching about the Wilson Audio Maxx3's - because of what it does to the vertical off axis dispersion. Do your YG's have separate crossover circuits for each medium?

Evidently Dr. Olive was able to establish that correlation...

1. The frequency response is a curve plotting the amplitude response (y-axis) as a function of frequency (x-axis). When talking about the frequency response of a loudspeaker, you must always reference the location of the microphone with respect to the loudspeaker since the frequency response will vary with location. Typically, manufacturers show the on-axis response where the microphone is placed on the reference axis of the loudspeaker. We also show a listening window frequency response that represents a spatial average of several microphone positions around the reference axis of the loudspeaker. We also show the spatial average of the first reflections where the microphone is placed at several angles where sound radiated ends up at the listening position from the first floor/ceiling/side/front/rear walls -- based on a survey of loudspeaker setups in different homes.

The sound power response is the frequency response of the total radiated sound produced from the loudspeaker at different frequencies. This can be measured by measuring the loudspeaker in a reverberation chamber or calculated by measuring the loudspeaker in an anechoic chamber at many angles around a sphere. We do a total of 70 different measurements in the vertical and horizontal orbits (every 10 degrees) and then calculate the sound power response from those measurements.

Your impression of the sound quality of a loudspeaker in a room is based on a combination of the direct, early and late reflected sounds produced by the loudspeakerTherefore, to accurately predict the loudspeakers' sound quality you need a lot of anechoic frequency response measurements that characterize the direct sound (on-axis//listening window frequency response curve, the early reflected sound(first reflection frequency response curve), and the late reflected sound (sound power response). We've shown that with this data, you can accurately predict the measured in-room response in a typical room between 200-300 Hz and 10 kHz. Below 300 Hz the room dominates what you hear (room resonances, solid boundary gain). Above 10 kHz or so, the absorption from air and room treatment will influence the late arrivals.

Perhaps what you meant to say was that you were never able to establish a serious correlation between measurements and your personal tastes, and that the position you preferred was not the one that measured best? As I'm sure you know, Toole and olive have established, in many studies over many years, that a strong statistical majority of listeners prefer the more accurate response, on and off axis. Your preference is personal.

Tim

MylesBAstor · Apr 5, 2014

Phelonious Ponk said:
Evidently Dr. Olive was able to establish that correlation...

Perhaps what you meant to say was that you were never able to establish a serious correlation between measurements and your personal tastes, and that the position you preferred was not the one that measured best?

Tim

Tim,

How many speakers have you listened to and measured?

Two, basic tenet of scientific study is one experiment is no experiment nor is one study meaningful until confirmed by another research group under the same conditions. No scientist in the world blindly accepts another groups results without duplicating it first and if confirmed, as a basis for future studies.

microstrip · Apr 5, 2014

dallasjustice said:
I agree. This hobby is fun and we all love music. Nobody on this forum needs to do anything. You refer to "We". Are you moderating this thread? On whose behalf do you speak? I'll continue to participate here as long as it's still fun and a free exchange.

As to MTM design: I think lateral off-axis is most important in most rooms. However, the Stereophile measurements show YG has good off axis vertically too. I grant you it's not as good as lateral.

As to measurements: They do matter, if done right. I've been to the YG factory in Colorado and have seen Yoav's operation. He has a large forklift and a mic setup for measuring ALL speakers leaving his high tech factory. If Stereophile measured YGs, then you could expect that all of them will measure exactly the same way. I strongly believe these type of measurements directly relate to subjective enjoyment.

Michael.

Sorry for disturbing you with my "we need". I can be more precise - for me it was supposed to mean "IMHO your contribution will be more valuable and worth a lot more if you want to give us the details". Surely most people, as me, are are in WBF for information and entertainment, I hope people will enjoy, learn and contribute on our exchange of opinions.

No one is telling that measurements do not matter. Buy IMHO using only a sub-set of measurements, such as only a few frequency response curves taken in room and interpreted by non experts in speaker design, can be highly misleading. YMMV, as they say.

microstrip · Apr 5, 2014

Phelonious Ponk said:
Evidently Dr. Olive was able to establish that correlation...

Perhaps what you meant to say was that you were never able to establish a serious correlation between measurements and your personal tastes, and that the position you preferred was not the one that measured best? As I'm sure you know, Toole and olive have established, in many studies over many years, that a strong statistical majority of listeners prefer the more accurate response, on and off axis. Your preference is personal.

Tim

Tim,

In order to establish their correlation, F. Toole and many of the brilliant people who worked at Harman, made a few assumptions that are not acceptable by audiophile standards. Please read S. Linkwitz, that we both also consider highly, about this matter, in his site. I have already once summarized his opinion in an answer to you in a similar thread and do not feel motivated to repeat it.

And yes, I have said times enough that my individual preferences are just personal opinions. As I feel the same about others, I was exchanging opinions with Dallasjustice.

dallasjustice · Apr 5, 2014

microstrip said:
Sorry for disturbing you with my "we need". I can be more precise - for me it was supposed to mean "IMHO your contribution will be more valuable and worth a lot more if you want to give us the details". Surely most people, as me, are are in WBF for information and entertainment, I hope people will enjoy, learn and contribute on our exchange of opinions.

No one is telling that measurements do not matter. Buy IMHO using only a sub-set of measurements, such as only a few frequency response curves taken in room and interpreted by non experts in speaker design, can be highly misleading. YMMV, as they say.

I agree with that. I have the on axis measurements for my YGs. However, they were taken for a different purpose. So, posting them on a thread like this to support or prove something I've said would be confusing. I don't have a huge warehouse and forklift. My room is only 14.5'x24'x9.3'. My measurements are taken inside of my DEQX and FIR filter applied time, phase and FR correction to my YG speakers. Nyal and I only applied a gentle filter above 1khz because he feels that, even measured in the middle of my room at 1m, measurements below 1khz taken from most residential rooms are misleading and counterproductive. Based on the wider bandwidth filters we tried, I agree with him.

Even though the YG measures well, a gentle FIR filter expertly applied inside the DEQX can make them sound even more natural and resolving.

mep · Apr 5, 2014

dallasjustice said:
I agree with that. I have the on axis measurements for my YGs. However, they were taken for a different purpose. So, posting them on a thread like this to support or prove something I've said would be confusing. I don't have a huge warehouse and forklift. My room is only 14.5'x24'x9.3'. My measurements are taken inside of my DEQX and FIR filter applied time, phase and FR correction to my YG speakers. Nyal and I only applied a gentle filter above 1khz because he feels that, even measured in the middle of my room at 1m, measurements below 1khz taken from most residential rooms are misleading and counterproductive. Based on the wider bandwidth filters we tried, I agree with him.

Even though the YG measures well, a gentle FIR filter expertly applied inside the DEQX can make them sound even more natural and resolving.

That's an interesting statement coming from Nyal. Over on another forum there is a thread there that shows parts of a presentation Nyal made to an audio club where he shows graphs of all the room/bass nasties that occur below 250Hz. So based on the statement that I bolded, does that mean you shouldn't take measurements below 1kHz and just tune by ear?

dallasjustice · Apr 5, 2014

mep said:
That's an interesting statement coming from Nyal. Over on another forum there is a thread there that shows parts of a presentation Nyal made to an audio club where he shows graphs of all the room/bass nasties that occur below 250Hz. So based on the statement that I bolded, does that mean you shouldn't take measurements below 1kHz and just tune by ear?

I think you are confusing speaker measurements with room measurements. They are 2 different types of measurements used for totally different purposes.

Phelonious Ponk · Apr 5, 2014

MylesBAstor said:
Tim,

How many speakers have you listened to and measured?

Two, basic tenet of scientific study is one experiment is no experiment nor is one study meaningful until confirmed by another research group under the same conditions. No scientist in the world blindly accepts another groups results without duplicating it first and if confirmed, as a basis for future studies.

Research correlating preference with more accurate on and off axis FR have been going on for decades, headed by Toole, and then Olive, at NRC in Canada and then at Harman in the US. we're not talking about one study.

mep · Apr 5, 2014

dallasjustice said:
I think you are confusing speaker measurements with room measurements. They are 2 different types of measurements used for totally different purposes.

I probably am. I get confused easily. How do you measure a speaker in a room without measuring the room as well?

Robh3606 · Apr 5, 2014

How do you measure a speaker in a room without measuring the room as well?

You take a gated measurement. The resolution and useful bandwidth determined by the length of the gate. In a typical room only up to say 4-5 milliseconds before you have the first reflection from one on the boundaries, usually ceiling or floor, or you can do a ground plane measurement which opens another can of worms so to speak. Or you can just take the measurement and not use a gate to see what the room adds/subtracts and then apply some DSP for room correction/ EQ.

The 4-5 millisecond gate is basically useless below say 800-900Hz.

Rob

mep · Apr 5, 2014

Robh3606 said:
You take a gated measurement. The resolution and useful bandwidth determined by the length of the gate. In a typical room only up to say 4-5 milliseconds before you have the first reflection from one on the boundaries, usually ceiling or floor, or you can do a ground plane measurement which opens another can of worms so to speak. Or you can just take the measurement and not use a gate to see what the room adds/subtracts and then apply some DSP for room correction/ EQ.

The 4-5 millisecond gate is basically useless below say 800-900Hz.Rob

Before room/speaker measurements were useless below 1kH and now we are between 800-900Hz as the cutoff point for making worthwhile measurements in the room. The point I was trying to make is that there is a reason speakers are professionally measured in an anechoic chamber and not in a listening room. At lower frequencies you are always going to get the room involved in your measurements due to the wavelengths involved. But a little notch here, a little increase there via some DSP and EQ and now you have some real magic I guess.

Anytime I read the words "DSP" I start breaking out in hives unless it's related to my home theater system which is in another part of my house and where I don't expect to hear anything approaching realistic 2 channel sound reproduction. I like to keep my analog music analog and of course you can never keep your digital music digital because it has to be converted back to analog before you can hear the zeros and ones after reconstruction into an analog waveform.

Robh3606 · Apr 5, 2014

Hello mep

Before room/speaker measurements were useless below 1kH and now we are between 800-900Hz as the cutoff point for making worthwhile measurements in the room.

The length of the reflection free window determines where you gate the measurement. The closer the boundaries the shorter the gate time. You want to increase the gate time as long as you can. The longer you can make the gate time the lower you can go and get a meaningful measurement. The bigger your room generally the longer your gate can be.

The point I was trying to make is that there is a reason speakers are professionally measured in an anechoic chamber and not in a listening room.

That doesn't mean you can't get a workable measurement using gated measurements or using other means such as an RTA. Very few manufacturers have their own anechoic chambers. I seem to do very well making good sounding speakers using the resources I have.

But a little notch here, a little increase there via some DSP and EQ and now you have some real magic I guess.

Depends I only use DSP in my LFE channel. My HT is all analog after the source. Any EQ is done in the analog domain. My two stereo systems have no EQ at all. They don't need any. Have you ever worked with a flexible DSP set-up?? It's a real eye opener once you have. Can't get more flexibility and nothing in the analog domain even comes close.

Anytime I read the words "DSP" I start breaking out in hives unless it's related to my home theater system which is in another part of my house and where I don't expect to hear anything approaching realistic 2 channel sound reproduction.

That's to bad. I look at my HT as my 3rd 2 channel system and my big rig. It's the only system I have that isn't frequency or dynamics limited. I get really satisfying 2 channel performance from it. FWIW I simply don't get the whole if it's HT or digital it can't be good. When ever I see that I wonder what the hell people who say that are doing wrong.

Rob

dallasjustice · Apr 6, 2014

mep said:
Anytime I read the words "DSP" I start breaking out in hives . . .

logizomechanophobia?

mep · Apr 6, 2014

dallasjustice said:
logizomechanophobia?

As someone who builds all of their home computers from scratch and maintains the network they run on, I don't think I qualify for that moniker. I simply don't want to take my analog signals and convert them to digital and then back to analog in hopes of not losing any of my sound quality while hoping to gain something from the DSP.

MylesBAstor · Apr 6, 2014

If DSP is the panacea it's purported, why doesn't every exhibitor at every high-end show use one. After all, exhibitors do use acoustical treatment.

dallasjustice · Apr 6, 2014

MylesBAstor said:
If DSP is the panacea it's purported . . .

Nobody said panacea. For speaker manufacturers/dealers and hence reviewers, DSP is pan-and-see-ya'.

Everyone has an agenda. For those with a genuine interest, there are really good free opportunities for individual exploration.

Michael.

Which speakers have the best off axis performance?

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