Which speakers have the best off axis performance?

ddk

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Hi David. You are naturally there are subjective things like taste of music.
What I meant is that the preferrence of different audio gear (loudspeakers etc.) is not as subjective as many think.

Hi hifikontoen, I don't dismiss measurements, they very important specially when they're as sophisticated those in the JBL video, but that's only part of the story. I love horns & SETs, specially old theater horns and compared to many modern speakers don't measure that well, nor do SETs when compared to ss electronics. My own horns that I've had for years roll off at 15khz and only go down to 50hz, but I'll never sell them or exchange them for any other speaker; and there are some that I sell that measure great and go from 28hz to 100khz with some diamond tweeter. The difference between the two for me is naturalness and musicality of these vintage horns, something that can't be measured but I agree that its objective as well as subjective. Even with JBL speakers that I own I prefer the pre measurement vintage ones many times more than any of their new ones. Even more so when I compare the 70's - 80's studio monitors with all their faults to the new ones they're going on about in this video which I can't stand. So yes, it all sounds impressive but to me it seems that JBL has given up their fabulous subjective art of sound to good but not special measured sound. Subjective? Objective? Not sure but I'm not alone in this opinion when it comes to JBL speakers.


david
 

mep

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Hi hifikontoen, I don't dismiss measurements, they very important specially when they're as sophisticated those in the JBL video, but that's only part of the story. I love horns & SETs, specially old theater horns and compared to many modern speakers don't measure that well, nor do SETs when compared to ss electronics. My own horns that I've had for years roll off at 15khz and only go down to 50hz, but I'll never sell them or exchange them for any other speaker; and there are some that I sell that measure great and go from 28hz to 100khz with some diamond tweeter. The difference between the two for me is naturalness and musicality of these vintage horns, something that can't be measured but I agree that its objective as well as subjective. Even with JBL speakers that I own I prefer the pre measurement vintage ones many times more than any of their new ones. Even more so when I compare the 70's - 80's studio monitors with all their faults to the new ones they're going on about in this video which I can't stand. So yes, it all sounds impressive but to me it seems that JBL has given up their fabulous subjective art of sound to good but not special measured sound. Subjective? Objective? Not sure but I'm not alone in this opinion when it comes to JBL speakers.


david


One thing we all need to understand is that at some point when the founders of great companies who are responsible for making those companies great leave, they may well no longer be great. There is a huge market for the old JBL speakers and not so much for the Harman JBL speakers.
 

Robh3606

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One thing we all need to understand is that at some point when the founders of great companies who are responsible for making those companies great leave, they may well no longer be great. There is a huge market for the old JBL speakers and not so much for the Harman JBL speakers.

Hello Mep

FWIW James B Lansing passed away in 1949. He unfortunantly didn't live to see his company become the powerhouse that it became in the 70-80's.

And again a quote from Lansing Heritage

In 1969 Thomas sold James B. Lansing Sound, Incorporated, to Sidney Harman of the Jervis Corporation. Under the astute leadership of Harman, the company grew from relatively modest gross sales of about $8 million in 1969 to about $60 million in 1981.

So it was really Sidney Harman and some kickass engineering who built the the monster. All built and based on James B Lansings talent as an engineer. Same as Altec Lansing. Almost identicle driver designs all based on JBL's talent as an engineer.

Rob:)
 
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Robh3606

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Even with JBL speakers that I own I prefer the pre measurement vintage ones many times more than any of their new ones. Even more so when I compare the 70's - 80's studio monitors with all their faults to the new ones they're going on about in this video which I can't stand. So yes, it all sounds impressive but to me it seems that JBL has given up their fabulous subjective art of sound to good but not special measured sound.

Hello David

What vintage systems do you have?? I have some as well. Have you tried a listen to the Arrays, K2's or Everest. I would very surprised that you would feel that way after hearing them. Epsecially since the same designer doing the current TOTL systems was around and designed a couple of the clasic monitors.

Rob:)
 
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ddk

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Hello Mep

FWIW James B Lansing passed away in 1949. He unfortunantly didn't live to see his company become the powerhouse that it became in the 70-80's.

And again a quote from Lansing Heritage



So it was really Sidney Harman and some kickass engineering who built the the monster. All built and based on James B Lansings talent as an engineer. Same as Altec Lansing. Almost identicle driver designs all based on JBL's talent as an engineer.

Rob:)

Hi Rob

Harman was the money man who bought JBL after his time with jimmy carter. The real genius there behind all the great JBL 4300 series studio speakers and the Everest and K2 speakers is Greg Timbers, JBL wouldn't be as great without him![/QUOTE]

Hello David

What vintage systems do you have?? I have some as well. Have you tried a listen to the Arrays, K2's or Everest. I would very surprised that you would feel that way after hearing them. Epsecially since the same designer doing the current TOTL systems was around and designed a couple of the clasic monitors.

Rob:)

As far as JBLs go currently just the original Everest, M9500, 4335, 4350 and 4345. Had a couple of Paragons and Harsfields that I recently sold. I was collecting vintage horns for a long time but started selling stuff from my collection since a year and a half ago, don't have the room anymore. If I didn't have my Klangfilm Bionors I would probably buy a pair of the dd67000s for my main system.

david
 
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MylesBAstor

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Hello Mep

FWIW James B Lansing passed away in 1949. He unfortunantly didn't live to see his company become the powerhouse that it became in the 70-80's.

And again a quote from Lansing Heritage



So it was really Sidney Harman and some kickass engineering who built the the monster. All built and based on James B Lansings talent as an engineer. Same as Altec Lansing. Almost identicle driver designs all based on JBL's talent as an engineer.

Rob:)

Ahem. And how much of those sales were car audio? Most.
 

Robh3606

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Ahem. And how much of those sales were car audio? Most.

Ahem. The correct answer is Zero. Did you read the post JBL from 1970-1980's. JBL didn't make car speakers in those decades.

Rob:)
 

JackD201

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Not true Rob.:) The T series was very popular around the world in the early 80's. JBL might not have been OEM yet (not sure) but they were already pretty successful in the component/after market segment. The big, heavy iron basket coaxials were particularly popular.

t205(1).jpg
 

Robh3606

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Hello Jack

OK I can't find anything aside from the GT's from the early 90's I actually have some 030ti drivers from that series. Early 80's??? You wouldn't have any of their old Automotive catalogs?? I can't find anything as to when they started beyond the early 90's. I know people did use component series drivers like the LE-8TH early on.

Rob:)
 

JackD201

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I wish I did Rob. What we did have was two cars that we set up with these speakers from 1982 to 1984. We wanted to do a 123 body 230. When we pulled out the Beckers though it turned out that there was no space for the magnets. That was a real bummer. Back went the wimps. These speakers could ROCK even with simple head units. They could out bang Pioneer TS' with dedicated amps.
 

Duke LeJeune

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As part of my blog series on speaker off axis performance (http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/, latest post: http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/whats-new/2014/3/5/speaker-off-axis-controlled-directivity-speakers) I've reviewed a lot of speaker off axis measurements.

The ones that I've been impressed with have been:
YG
KEF
Revel
JBL
Adam
Vivid

All of these companies obviously pay attention to what the sound is doing off axis.

If we accept the premise that most of the sound that reaches our ears in a normal listening room is reflected or reverberant sound, and/or the premise that the reverberant sound can have a significant influence on perceived timbre (singing in the shower), then the off-axis sound matters. How much it matters and where the goal posts are for off-axis performance may be subject to debate, but "it matters" is a good starting point.

At the risk of either over-simplifying or over-complicating, in my opinion there are four basic catagories of radiation patterns for speakers that "get the off-axis sound right". And just to be clear, imo "getting the off-axis sound right" starts with the spectral balance of the off-axis energy being similar to the spectral balance of the on-axis (or first-arrival) energy.

First up, we have "wide pattern smooth". The speakers that I'm familiar with from Nyal's list all fall into this category. This is where the -6 dB limits of the radiation pattern form an arc more than 90 degrees wide in the horizontal plane across much or most of the spectum. This is my arbitrary definition and anyone is free to disagree. I would add Gradient to the list, as their Revolution and Helsenki models have exceptionally well-behaved radiation patterns, due in part to the unorthodox midbass and bass loading techniques designer Jorma Salmi uses. Most (but not all) speakers in this category are three-way (or more) direct-radiatior systems, some two-way concentrics being exceptions.

Next, "narrow pattern smooth", wherein the radiation pattern is 90 degrees or less in the horizontal plane, typically with radiation pattern matching in the crossover region. To the best of my knowledge Altec pioneered this approach with their Model 19 and its siblings, which were improved on in the landmark JBL model 4430 studio monitor, and whose modern optimized incarnation would be epitomized in the GedLee line. Most in this category use constant-directivity horns or waveguides.

Then we have "omnidirectional" or nearly omnidirectional speakers, in the horizontal plane anyway. MBL, Ohm, Mirage, Duevel, and last-but-not least the amazingly affordable Morrison Audio come to mind. This approach gives the richest timbre of them all, as spectrally-correct reflections are especially beneficial to timbre (which is why good recital halls tend towards being diffusively reverberant instead of anechoic).

The final category I'll call "polydirectional", a term coined by Richard Shahinian, and this category of course includes his speakers as well as many dipoles, bipoles, and others. Even using a rear-firing tweeter to fill in missing reverberant field energy in the upper octaves qualifies as polydirectional in my book. The SoundLabs were mentioned earlier in this thread, and imo when set up correctly they may well be the ideal example of a good polydirectional: Very smooth first-arrival sound across a 90 degree arc, and then a generous helping of spectrally identical reverberant energy whose onset begins after a significant path-length-induced time delay (assuming they're positioned well out in front of the wall).

All of these approaches have their advantages, all involve tradeoffs, and in case you didn't notice I have opinions as to which of ones yield the best net results. But as long as intelligent thought is applied to rendering the reverberant energy supportive of, rather than detrimental to, the first-arrival sound, imo we're barking up the right tree.

Some posts in this thread have talked about DSP. The one thing DSP cannot fix is the radiation pattern. So as DSP improves in power and sound quality and becomes more practical, more affordable, and more widely used, I think we'll see radiation pattern smoothness become increasingly valued as a basic requirement for a high performance loudspeaker.

Imo, ime, ymmv, etc.
 
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Pearuser1

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I'm surprised that Shahinian speakers aren't more popular in the US. They have a strong following here in the old country. The Obelisk 2 and Diapason in particular are outstanding at producing a natural, open, dynamic sound with that lovely live effect. Strong with rock music in my system, excellent with classical and traditional jazz.
 

c1ferrari

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Duke,

I just wanted to express a 'thank you' for post #111 :cool:
Will you be attending THE Show in CA this year by any chance?
 

Duke LeJeune

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Duke,

I just wanted to express a 'thank you' for post #111 :cool:
Will you be attending THE Show in CA this year by any chance?

Thank you sir!

I won't personally be in attendance at T.H.E. Show next weekend, but will have a new polydirectional speaker making its debut in Room 920 (Electra-Fidelity). The configuration used is the invention of Jim Romeyn, called "LCS" for "Late Ceiling Splash". It's our attempt to get the benefits of relatively long path-length-induced time-delay for the extra reverberant energy, in an unusually room-placement-friendly package. Jim will be there, and I think he'll have some switchology set up so that you can toggle between direct-array-only and direct-plus-LCS operation, in case you're interested.
 

c1ferrari

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
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You are most welcome...I would say, thank you, again, for your instructive contributions :)
I'm looking forward to visiting Rm. 920 and hearing your polydirectional speakers.
 

Bergfinn

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I would add the Gallo Strada 2 to the list.
 
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