Sometimes it pays to experiment.

DaveyF

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2010
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I suspect like many of you, once my system is 'dialed' in, I am VERY loath to move components around, particularly my speakers. So on the suggestion of a good friend and fellow a'phile, who had recommended some experimentation with the placement of my speakers, I decided after all this time to play around with some toe-in. Now this wasn't something that I was expecting to be of great benefit as my speakers were dialed in with great care in the past, plus my room is a challenge due to its small size. So after a little nail biting ( actually a lot) I took the plunge.
I toed in the speakers with various angles, listening with each change, and sure enough, there was a distinct gain in certain areas of the reproduction. After about two hours, i had a new placement dialed in with the speakers each firing to the outside of my ears. The soundstage was now a little wider than I had initially and there was more of a sense of ease to the reproduction of all instruments. Minor details that were a tad lost in the background now seemed to jump to the fore and the bass was even more integrated into the whole.
Moral of this story is that it still seems to pay dividends to experiment a little with placement every once in a while just to see iF there can be any further improvements to one's SQ.

So to those who are totally convinced that their speakers are 100% correctly placed.....are you so sure that you can't even do a little experimentation....something to think about:D

(BTW, marking the old placement with some blue tape is always suggested and what i have done....although I doubt I will be going back).

Sometimes it pays to experiment.:cool:
 

GaryProtein

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Jul 25, 2012
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I'm curious how people with 100+kg speakers adjust their positions. :)

It isn't easy! It takes two people and you can really ruin your floor if you aren't careful..
 

microstrip

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I'm curious how people with 100+kg speakers adjust their positions. :)

I have owned several speakers over 100 kg and it was easy - during the first weeks I had them on a wheeled platform. The wheels were placed laterally and the platform only raised the speakers about 3 cm. Once the optimum position was found the platforms are removed. As my room has a wood floor, for speakers bellow 100 kg I have also used some custom made Teflon sliders with inserts for the spikes.
 

dallasjustice

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Apr 12, 2011
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It's no fun. I once dropped a 300 pound speaker on amp while trying to move it around. Once it started falling, I just got out of the way. I'm glad I didn't try to stop it. :D

Can you also move your seat? You might be able to get a little better bass if you play with seated position.

Adding subs can also make speaker position much less important to the bass response. However, it sounds like your main concern is midrange clarity.
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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My personal procedure is to start with the speakers toed in to an equilateral triangle and then move my listening position until I find the bass quality I like, then start toeing the speakers progressively out until I like the imaging and frequency response. I've found that for me, apparently as DaveyF has just found, having the speaker axes cross somewhere behind me is most satisfying.
 

es347

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Apr 20, 2010
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Midwest fly over state..

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Revisiting (further experimentation) your room acoustics/treatments will sometimes yield nice improvements too.

That is a good suggestion, however, in my case I wasn't able to get improvements in that area.
I think one of the reasons that I did have to change the positioning of my speakers was the fact that I had very recently upgraded my front end and so the overall sound of the system had changed. Since the bass response was now better, I suspect the change of speaker position was now mandated. Something that I had not realized would be a factor. Which is why it pays to experiment every time a change in upstream gear is accomplished, IMO.
 

zztop7

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Dec 12, 2012
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It's no fun. I once dropped a 300 pound speaker on amp while trying to move it around. Once it started falling, I just got out of the way. I'm glad I didn't try to stop it. :D

Very wise.
Along the lines of - do NOT try to catch a falling knife / do NOT try to catch a dropped glass.

zz.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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My personal procedure is to start with the speakers toed in to an equilateral triangle and then move my listening position until I find the bass quality I like, then start toeing the speakers progressively out until I like the imaging and frequency response. I've found that for me, apparently as DaveyF has just found, having the speaker axes cross somewhere behind me is most satisfying.

One more thing that many leave out is that moving the speakers closer together or further apart results in large changes in upper bass quality (male voices, the deeper female voices). The wavelength at 140Hz is about 8 feet - which is how far many speakers are set apart and how far you sit away from them. The relationship between the two speakers and the listening position affects upper bass quality most.
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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One more thing that many leave out is that moving the speakers closer together or further apart results in large changes in upper bass quality (male voices, the deeper female voices). The wavelength at 140Hz is about 8 feet - which is how far many speakers are set apart and how far you sit away from them. The relationship between the two speakers and the listening position affects upper bass quality most.

So what's the ideal ratio Gary?
 

yawg

New Member
Mar 29, 2014
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There's no one ideal ratio. It depends on the room and the speakers. In general, I would consider speaker to speaker, speaker to wall (all walls), speaker to listener, listener to wall.

There's a good rule of thumb though: place the speakers/drivers on an odd fracture of your room dimensions like 1/5th, 3/7th etc. so you will avoid standing waves.
 

Robh3606

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2010
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There was an old Roy Allison speaker placement article back in Stereo Review when he came out with the original Allison line of speakers that were designed to be placed in specific points in the room. One of the things I have always used from it was to keep placement to walls and ceilings, floor different. Basically no 2 dimensions are the same or even multiples ideally in a 3' 2' 1' as an example. The same idea as using 1/5, 3/7 in a room.

I agree with the OP there is no downside to playing with speaker placement and toe-in. It can really make or break how the system sounds.


Rob:)
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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...it pays to experiment every time a change in upstream gear is accomplished, IMO.

Agree...I have been steadily advancing my entire system's performance through just one area: isolation. Each time I isolate one component I hear differences, and I usually have to make several changes to that one component's isolation to maintain the balance of the overall system. Most recently, I have now 'finished?' isolating every single component ON TOP and UNDERNEATH. this includes even the big X1s which now have not only Ultra 5s underneath...but Entreq Vibb Eaters (6.5kg each) on top in the back of the modules.

The dealer brought them at my request, as I was curious about the vibrational improvements to the X1s due to the Ultra 5s...and if some form of damping on top of the modules might further improve things. I have long felt there was waaaay too much vibration going on in the upper modules of my X1. Purely curiosity and a little instinct really.

At first, they helped a little bit. However, with the Vibb Eaters from Entreq (which are filled with copper shot, various metals, etc)...you REALLY have to pound it into shape to wrap around the back of the modules and really dampen the vibration. You cannot just plunk it down on top of a speaker. Once I kept pounding, shaping the Vibb Eater (like clay)...I suddenly heard the modules 'snap' into a much more solid signal...even from listening from the back of the speaker, I realized something had improved as soon as there was a critical amount of damping of the modules.

Timing improved where just the teeniest little shadings of vibration around strings, snaps, upper drums disappear which are 'loose'...are now solidified into greater and greater definite details of decay or extra shades of notes or nuances.

It has taken a while of just pounding the 'copper shot clay' into shape but it finally worked this evening. A rewarding little experiment.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Agree...I have been steadily advancing my entire system's performance through just one area: isolation. Each time I isolate one component I hear differences, and I usually have to make several changes to that one component's isolation to maintain the balance of the overall system. Most recently, I have now 'finished?' isolating every single component ON TOP and UNDERNEATH. this includes even the big X1s which now have not only Ultra 5s underneath...but Entreq Vibb Eaters (6.5kg each) on top in the back of the modules.

The dealer brought them at my request, as I was curious about the vibrational improvements to the X1s due to the Ultra 5s...and if some form of damping on top of the modules might further improve things. I have long felt there was waaaay too much vibration going on in the upper modules of my X1. Purely curiosity and a little instinct really.

At first, they helped a little bit. However, with the Vibb Eaters from Entreq (which are filled with copper shot, various metals, etc)...you REALLY have to pound it into shape to wrap around the back of the modules and really dampen the vibration. You cannot just plunk it down on top of a speaker. Once I kept pounding, shaping the Vibb Eater (like clay)...I suddenly heard the modules 'snap' into a much more solid signal...even from listening from the back of the speaker, I realized something had improved as soon as there was a critical amount of damping of the modules.

Timing improved where just the teeniest little shadings of vibration around strings, snaps, upper drums disappear which are 'loose'...are now solidified into greater and greater definite details of decay or extra shades of notes or nuances.

It has taken a while of just pounding the 'copper shot clay' into shape but it finally worked this evening. A rewarding little experiment.

Lloyd-I have to say this:Are you sure you don't have some screws loose? :D
 

jn229

Well-Known Member
Jul 23, 2012
112
3
925
Southwestern Ontario
Does changing; say a phono cartridge, which can change frequency balance mean a change in speaker position would be beneficial?
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
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Lloyd-I have to say this:Are you sure you don't have some screws loose? :D

I am sure you enjoyed coming up with that one! ;)
 

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