The problems with measurements - part one, electronics

j.phelan · Mar 25, 2014

I am not an engineer - but I still have a right to raise these issues (concerning "testers" like Stereophile, etc.)

-Don't show SID distortion figures or high-order non-linear distortion at lower levels.

-Quote at a single frequency.

-(Makers) rate distortion in volts - not power. Don't convert to real numbers, which would be much higher. (James Bongiorno's webpage talked about this).

-(Power amp) SNR is shown w/o specifying power level or methodology. (Audioholics the source).

-(Preamp) output level data shown w/o specifying load impedance. (Audioholics again).

**Not a good list - but my "speaker" problems (to be posted) are even worse

Thank You

j.phelan · Mar 25, 2014

So - if few consumers understand measurements (and the ways they "manipulate" them), then audio is a hoax. Who do they think they're fooling ?

Phelonious Ponk · Mar 26, 2014

j.phelan said:
So - if few consumers understand measurements (and the ways they "manipulate" them), then audio is a hoax. Who do they think they're fooling ?

If you don't understand genetics and you read an article that is a broad overview focusing on just a few understandable things that make genetics appear to be simpler than it actually is, is genetics a hoax?

The article may be a hoax, or it may just be simplistic. But this would make genetics a hoax?

Tim

j.phelan · Mar 26, 2014

Let me clarify - audio *measurements* -as shown to the public- are a hoax.

Not in engineering, when they need to know something (in design).

I've updated the list above.

BlueFox · Mar 26, 2014

So, what is the purpose of this thread?

Phelonious Ponk · Mar 26, 2014

j.phelan said:
Let me clarify - audio *measurements* -as shown to the public- are a hoax.

Not in engineering, when they need to know something (in design).

I've updated the list above.

This might need some clarification as well. There are some pretty comprehensive, very useful measurements available to the public in magazines and on the internet. Unfortunately a pretty small number of products have been covered this way. I think what you really mean to say, and I apologize for putting words in your mouth, is that manufacturers' published specifications are a hoax. And to that I'd say; a) it depends, and b) "hoax is probably too strong a word, though I sure get where you're going with that.

Tim

Phelonious Ponk · Mar 26, 2014

BlueFox said:
So, what is the purpose of this thread?

If threads needed purpose, we'd have little to talk about.

Tim

microstrip · Mar 26, 2014

Phelonious Ponk said:
This might need some clarification as well. There are some pretty comprehensive, very useful measurements available to the public in magazines and on the internet. Unfortunately a pretty small number of products have been covered this way. I think what you really mean to say, and I apologize for putting words in your mouth, is that manufacturers' published specifications are a hoax. And to that I'd say; a) it depends, and b) "hoax is probably too strong a word, though I sure get where you're going with that.

Tim

Tim,

Although I consider that I am able to read and interpret review measurements better than the average audiophile, I see little real use of them for practical purposes in high-end. IMHO, except for a few cases that are exceptional, no one can systematically establish a correlation between sound quality of the tested equipment in a system and these review measurements. Unfortunately, most of the people who love specifications and measurements will tell you that they only prove that the sound differences will be minimal or non existent.

j.phelan · Mar 26, 2014

No problem - I'm referring to most published measurements - makers and magazines alike. But not when magazines test the RMS (to verify power claims of makers). Or "breakup" tests in speakers - to see how loud they play.

Manufacturers' claims (when they show them) are largely suspect. Esp. when they use voltage-based measuring. Because through solid-state amps, at least, we hear power - not volts.

Phelonious Ponk · Mar 26, 2014

microstrip said:
Tim,

Although I consider that I am able to read and interpret review measurements better than the average audiophile, I see little real use of them for practical purposes in high-end. IMHO, except for a few cases that are exceptional, no one can systematically establish a correlation between sound quality of the tested equipment in a system and these review measurements. Unfortunately, most of the people who love specifications and measurements will tell you that they only prove that the sound differences will be minimal or non existent.

I think we would agree that very few reviews contain useful measurements. I suspect we'd disagree on almost everything else.

Tim

Gregadd · Mar 27, 2014

I do not know if t ere is a problem with measurements per se. From the audiophile perspective it is the result that counts. Engineers have let us down if they had always been faithful there would be no highend press or industry. That is capitalism.
Let us take a square wave it can tell us something
But is there a musical equivalent? Measuring maybe a science. Design is part science and part art. A balancing act of trial and error.

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The problems with measurements - part one, electronics

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