Stunning sounding high res files

Andre Marc

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Mar 14, 2012
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Hi Andre,

I've already said I'm not suggesting anything at all. I saying flat out and directly that FLAC is not for me.
I understand you may feel differently about it than I do.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Ok, if you don't mind, why is not for you? Are there technical reasons..and we don't have to confine this what you sell..also happy to discuss what you prefer for your own personal use. I have no preconceived notions, just looking to exchange information.
 

MadFloyd

Member Sponsor
May 30, 2010
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I have no issues downloading large files - plenty of bandwidth here, but if a provider only offered raw PCM files I would pass. I don't want to have to pay somebody and do conversion and tagging work myself. Not in 2015.
 

Andre Marc

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Mar 14, 2012
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I have no issues downloading large files - plenty of bandwidth here, but if a provider only offered raw PCM files I would pass. I don't want to have to pay somebody and do conversion and tagging work myself. Not in 2015.

I admit I find it annoying to buy untagged files...but If i really wanted the music it would not be a deal killer.
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
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The files on Barry's discs are tagged.
 

bdiament

Member
Apr 26, 2012
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New York area
Ok, if you don't mind, why is not for you? Are there technical reasons..and we don't have to confine this what you sell..also happy to discuss what you prefer for your own personal use. I have no preconceived notions, just looking to exchange information.

Hi Andre,

First, know that I do not seek to argue, nor will I participate in any arguments. Life is way too short to argue with folks on the Internet about audio.
That said, they are not for me because to my ears, they don't sound the same as the source file.
I know the theory and I know you've already said you believe "FLAC as a delivery container is absolutely without question does no harm what so ever to the file."

My own experience (as well as that of the rest of the listening panel in blind testing we conducted here) does not support this assertion.
Note, I'm not saying those who like it shouldn't use it. I'm speaking only for myself. And since Soundkeeper's purpose is to make the very best recordings I know how to make, we stick with raw .aif (which is the format in which I do all my work) or .wav.

Again, I understand you feel differently. The amazing thing in audio for me, is when folks actually hear things the same way. I'm never surprised when folks hear things differently.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
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There have been some listening tests done where WAV was consistently preferred to AIFF. Barry, have you made this comparison?
 

bdiament

Member
Apr 26, 2012
196
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New York area
There have been some listening tests done where WAV was consistently preferred to AIFF. Barry, have you made this comparison?

Hi rbbert,

I have heard the same from a number of folks, always in favor of .wav.
Yes, once I heard what they had to say, I did a number of comparisons and must say that I just don't hear any difference between the two formats.

Please note, I am not saying there is no difference. I can only report my own experience.
I'm not saying the folks who hear it are imagining it. I believe they are hearing what they describe.
I'm simply saying that in my own listening, in *trying* to hear a difference, I have not been able to detect any sonic discrepancies that I can describe. To my ears, they are indistinguishable.

(I never heard a difference with green marker on CDs either. Yet, Keith Johnson, who I have great respect for, has shown there *is* a real difference: jitter is increased with the marker. The only difference I ever perceived was that my hands got ink on them.)

All this goes to what I've said has been my experience for years. That is, that different folks have different sensitivities to different aspects of sound.

How about you? Have you compared .aif and .wav? If so, what did you find?

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
3,820
239
1,000
Reno, NV
I can't tell the difference between WAV and AIFF, nor can I tell the difference between either file format converted to FLAC and then back to its native format, or WAV > FLAC > AIF or AIF > FLAC > WAV. On my old iMac using an older version of Amarra, FLAC decoded on the fly sometimes doesn't sound as good as it does first decoded to WAV or AIF. On newer hardware and software I can no longer hear that difference.

From theoretical perspective, burning the files to disc (especially at too slow a speed) offers more potential for damage than converting to FLAC and back, but I haven't heard a problem there either.
 

bdiament

Member
Apr 26, 2012
196
0
16
New York area
...From theoretical perspective, burning the files to disc (especially at too slow a speed) offers more potential for damage than converting to FLAC and back, but I haven't heard a problem there either.

Hi rbbert,

My experience has been that provided the blanks can accommodate the slower speed, I get better burns at slow speed. This would apply to *audio* discs that are to be played via a CD player or transport.

As far as files (e.g., .aif or .wav), I have not experienced any issues with burning them to discs. Comparisons with the disc-sourced files brought back into the computer with the master files has shown them to be sonically indistinguishable (to me).

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
 

rbbert

Well-Known Member
Dec 12, 2010
3,820
239
1,000
Reno, NV
As I said, I also find them indistinguishable. "Burning too slowly" refers to the errors occurring during disc burning and is very dependent on the specific discs and burner being used. In most cases, the fewest errors and the easiest reading occurs with a burning speed at about 1/3-1/2 the disc's maximum with the specific burner used. However, burning to disc clearly has more data errors than conversion to and from FLAC; in both cases there are error correction schemes in place, so who knows whether or not it matters in the end.
 

Andre Marc

Member Sponsor
Mar 14, 2012
3,970
7
0
San Diego
www.avrev.com
Hi Andre,

First, know that I do not seek to argue, nor will I participate in any arguments. Life is way too short to argue with folks on the Internet about audio.
That said, they are not for me because to my ears, they don't sound the same as the source file.
I know the theory and I know you've already said you believe "FLAC as a delivery container is absolutely without question does no harm what so ever to the file."

My own experience (as well as that of the rest of the listening panel in blind testing we conducted here) does not support this assertion.
Note, I'm not saying those who like it shouldn't use it. I'm speaking only for myself. And since Soundkeeper's purpose is to make the very best recordings I know how to make, we stick with raw .aif (which is the format in which I do all my work) or .wav.

Again, I understand you feel differently. The amazing thing in audio for me, is when folks actually hear things the same way. I'm never surprised when folks hear things differently.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Hey Barry:

No argument sought!

Just an exchange of experiences.

Your explanation is more than good enough for me! I was just seeking to understand your reasoning.

I also try to keep the files in my library, 6TB and growing through the minimal amount of conversions and processing as possible.

Thanks for the follow up.
 

bdiament

Member
Apr 26, 2012
196
0
16
New York area
Hey Barry:

No argument sought!

Just an exchange of experiences.

Your explanation is more than good enough for me! I was just seeking to understand your reasoning.

I also try to keep the files in my library, 6TB and growing through the minimal amount of conversions and processing as possible.

Thanks for the follow up.

Thanks Andre.

All this only reinforces my experience over the years that different folks have different sensitivities to different aspects of sound. I know folks how love their flac files, some who would choose .wav over .aif, and others who love their DSD.

Similarly, I find folks select their DACs from one of what I think of as three different "schools": the "detail enhancers", the "silky smooth", and the "gets out of the way". This is why I always say that what is "good", "better" or "best" depends upon exactly what the listener is seeking. Same with different masterings of the same recording. With software and with hardware, one person's "highly detailed" is another person's "ear ripper" and vice versa.

So far, I have only found one component that, at least in my own experience, seems to garner universal praise from those who use it and that is the interface I use, which serves as my mic preamps and A-D converters and headphone amp during recording sessions and as my D-A converter, and sometimes external processor during mixes or mastering sessions.
(I know someone is going to ask so: That device is the Metric Halo ULN-8, the first recording device in my experience that--when used at 4x rates--has provided results I have not yet been able to distinguish from the direct mic feed. I never heard this before from any Ampex, Scully, Studer, MCI or other analog recorder and certainly not from any other digital recorder, regardless of price or format. My only complaint is that I can't blame the gear anymore for any possible flaws in my work. ;-{)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
 

Andre Marc

Member Sponsor
Mar 14, 2012
3,970
7
0
San Diego
www.avrev.com
Thanks Andre.

All this only reinforces my experience over the years that different folks have different sensitivities to different aspects of sound. I know folks how love their flac files, some who would choose .wav over .aif, and others who love their DSD.

Similarly, I find folks select their DACs from one of what I think of as three different "schools": the "detail enhancers", the "silky smooth", and the "gets out of the way". This is why I always say that what is "good", "better" or "best" depends upon exactly what the listener is seeking. Same with different masterings of the same recording. With software and with hardware, one person's "highly detailed" is another person's "ear ripper" and vice versa.

So far, I have only found one component that, at least in my own experience, seems to garner universal praise from those who use it and that is the interface I use, which serves as my mic preamps and A-D converters and headphone amp during recording sessions and as my D-A converter, and sometimes external processor during mixes or mastering sessions.
(I know someone is going to ask so: That device is the Metric Halo ULN-8, the first recording device in my experience that--when used at 4x rates--has provided results I have not yet been able to distinguish from the direct mic feed. I never heard this before from any Ampex, Scully, Studer, MCI or other analog recorder and certainly not from any other digital recorder, regardless of price or format. My only complaint is that I can't blame the gear anymore for any possible flaws in my work. ;-{)

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com

Hey Barry:

Great post.

You forgot one DAC category..I often hear some, even reviewers, call DACs "analog" like. I am not sure if that is praise
or not sometimes lol.

I have seen you post about the Metric Halo before. It is always amazing when those at the top of their field find the tool
or tools that allows them to maximize their talents.

I will say that those who record to tape probably are not looking for an exact replica of a mic feed, but are actually seeking the
flavor that the format can impart, just like painters use different paints. Fascinating stuff.

One last note about FLAC, forget sonics, it does offer one use advantage in that it saves you approx. 60% in storage space, and for libraries
like mine, that is not a small thing. Those who have modest libraries, I would actually recommend AIFF, no reason to compress. The issue with WAV is backing up metadata and no art tags.
 
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bdiament

Member
Apr 26, 2012
196
0
16
New York area
...I will say that those who record to tape probably are not looking for an exact replica of a mic feed, but are actually seeking the flavor that the format can impart, just like painters use different paints....

Hi Andre,

I definitely think that is true of many. In the same way, most engineers I know tend to select their microphones based on the type of color they'd like to apply to whatever they're using that mic for. The audible evidence would suggest that the preponderance of studio "monitors" are chosen for the same reasons.

It all depends on what one seeks. There are as many "correct" approaches as there are desired outcomes.

Best regards,
Barry
www.soundkeeperrecordings.com
www.soundkeeperrecordings.wordpress.com
www.barrydiamentaudio.com
 

Alpinist

Well-Known Member
Jun 17, 2014
530
143
280
USA
Ella Fitzgerald - Sings the Duke Ellington Songbook (192/24 WAV)
Sonny Rollins - Saxophone Colossus (192/24 WAV)
Jimmy Cobb - Jazz in the Key of Blue (192/24 WAV)
Kenny Barron/Dave Holland - The Art of Conversation (96/24 WAV)

Crosby, Stills & Nash - Crosby, Stills & Nash (96/24 WAV)
Crosby, Stills & Nash - Daylight Again (192/24 WAV)
Eagles - Hotel California (192/24 WAV)
Paul Simon - Graceland (96/24 WAV)
 

Audiocrack

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2012
2,185
690
1,158
Ella Fitzgerald - Sings the Duke Ellington Songbook (192/24 WAV)
Sonny Rollins - Saxophone Colossus (192/24 WAV)
Jimmy Cobb - Jazz in the Key of Blue (192/24 WAV)
Kenny Barron/Dave Holland - The Art of Conversation (96/24 WAV)

Crosby, Stills & Nash - Crosby, Stills & Nash (96/24 WAV)
Crosby, Stills & Nash - Daylight Again (192/24 WAV)
Eagles - Hotel California (192/24 WAV)
Paul Simon - Graceland (96/24 WAV)

Thanks Alpinist for your contribution.
 

Audiocrack

Well-Known Member
Aug 10, 2012
2,185
690
1,158
Elgar, the dream of Gerontius/sea pictures, Andrew Davis, BBC Symphony Orchestra, Chandos, 24/96. Very refined and beautiful sounding recording of a large orchestra. Vocalists are excellently recorded as well. A joy to listen to.

Some time ago I listed a Chandos recording with various pieces of Stravinsky. After some more (intensive) listening I have come to the conclusion that I was somewhat over optimistic/enthusiastic: although a (pretty) good recording it is imho not an outstanding one.
 
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Joe Whip

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2014
1,739
562
405
Wayne, PA
Ella Fitzgerald - Sings the Duke Ellington Songbook (192/24 WAV)
Sonny Rollins - Saxophone Colossus (192/24 WAV)
Jimmy Cobb - Jazz in the Key of Blue (192/24 WAV)
Kenny Barron/Dave Holland - The Art of Conversation (96/24 WAV)

Crosby, Stills & Nash - Crosby, Stills & Nash (96/24 WAV)
Crosby, Stills & Nash - Daylight Again (192/24 WAV)
Eagles - Hotel California (192/24 WAV)
Paul Simon - Graceland (96/24 WAV)

Gee, where do you get the WAV files? All I see on the various on line stores is AIFF or FLAC. Thanks.
 

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