Why every music lover needs to buy a turntable - discuss.

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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Yes, let's not descend into another analog/digital food fight. I'm more concerned about different mix/masters being foisted upon us in the quest for more profit.....

Take the Michael Jackson Thriller download from Acoustic Sounds (Super HiRez) as an example. The DSD download is $24.98 and the 24/96 FLAC is $17.98. The dynamic range of the DSD is far greater than the FLAC. It's a trivial task using AudioGate to convert from DSD to 24/176.4 - which HD Tracks sells for $24.98 as well.

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=michael+jackson&album=thriller

Are we being taken for a ride? Is Acoustic Sounds doing this to promote the DSD format by intentionally selling a compressed FLAC version?

How does Thriller sound on DSD vs. the original LP?
 

PeterA

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Dec 6, 2011
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This is correct.

When you start with digital masters and you make vinyl, all you can do is degrade the signal. it is impossible not to. It doesn't matter how good your table or your system is, you still have to go down a couple of analog generations to get to the first pressing. Is it audible? I don't know. But anybody who understands squat about recording and reproducing analog audio knows there is no advantage there. It can't get better. It can only degrade the signal. Now, when it's all said and done, vinyl has a sound of it's own. If you like it, excellent. Enjoy. Better? In any way that has any meaning beyond your opinion and those who agree with you? Nope. You disagree? You think it's "better," not just preferred? Tell me how that master got better in the process of making a record. Provide some supporting data. Argue like a grownup.

Tim

I have compared my LP versions of Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed and Sonny Rollins' Way out West with my original redbook CD versions. I think the former was originally recorded digitally. I don't know if the mastering or mixing is different, but I clearly prefer the LP versions. I'm not sure I can refer to the first one as analog, because the signal was never a continuous analog signal. Data is missing. But the Rollins was originally analog. I actually hear more detail and spacial information as well as better timbre and weight with the LPs. They sound much more natural.

You may just think I prefer analog to digital because they sound different and I prefer the former. That is fine and understandable and perhaps you are right. However, because I can actually hear more musical content, it leads me to conclude that my analog front end is better than my digital front end and simply extracts more information out of the media, even if the signal embedded in that media has been degraded by the conversion process. I hold open the possibility that a top level analog front end can in fact extract more data from an LP with less objectionable distortion than can a top digital player from a CD, at least one that is redbook standard.
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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I have compared my LP versions of Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed and Sonny Rollins' Way out West with my original redbook CD versions. I think the former was originally recorded digitally. I don't know if the mastering or mixing is different, but I clearly prefer the LP versions.

Depends upon which RBCD release you're talking about. As I wrote about in TAS, there was the US release and the much better Canadian Alert release. Both coincidentally came from the same 1630 tape. But I don't necessarily think that will change your bottom line.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Sep 6, 2010
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How does Thriller sound on DSD vs. the original LP?

I already have so many versions - different pressings and re-issues of LP, RBCD, that I'm not inclined to go and buy a download..... I don't recall the SACD as being as good as the original or Japanese pressing LP. However, this is based on faded memories. I haven't listened to this album in years.

Nevertheless, if you are so inclined, check out Enrico Rava's version - http://player.ecmrecords.com/rava-on_the_dance_floor
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Yes it can happen. It all depends on how you define or what you consider better. If you hold the iron clad belief that the master must not be altered at all, then it can never be better only worse even if subjectively you or anybody else likes it more. Why stop at the master anyway? If you have an LP the source IS the LP. If you have the CD, the source IS the CD. Try and be faithful to that if you must in terms of strict dogma. You and I will never have the master unless we own it. Masters aren't really the holy grail. They are the archive from which releases for various forms are derived. That is what RE-mastering is for. Again while I respect your convictions Tim, I do not operate rigidly within the fidelity for fidelity's sake framework. I'm a consumer not an archivist.

I'm not an archivist either, Jack. And I don't hold that the master must be left untouched. The master itself is highly manipulated. If it sounds good, it is good. But what you're talking about is preference. Is it dogmatic of me to insist on a clear line between preference and claims of superiority? Maybe in another endeavor. In the audiophile hobby, where the clear superiority of conventional wisdoms is aggressively asserted against all evidence, where challenging that "wisdom" is likely to get your ears, your system, your listening experience insulted, it's a survival technique. The analog/vinyl crowd is so convinced that their choice should be everybody's choice that dissent is not tolerated. I can't actually like what I like; there has to be some deficiency somewhere, or I would agree with them. That's the clear message.

I got'cher dogma right there...

Tim
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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...The analog/vinyl crowd is so convinced that their choice should be everybody's choice that dissent is not tolerated...

Tim
Unfortunately they seem to have convinced a significant part of the marketing arm of the music industry as well..
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I have compared my LP versions of Holly Cole's Don't Smoke in Bed and Sonny Rollins' Way out West with my original redbook CD versions. I think the former was originally recorded digitally. I don't know if the mastering or mixing is different, but I clearly prefer the LP versions. I'm not sure I can refer to the first one as analog, because the signal was never a continuous analog signal. Data is missing. But the Rollins was originally analog. I actually hear more detail and spacial information as well as better timbre and weight with the LPs. They sound much more natural.

You may just think I prefer analog to digital because they sound different and I prefer the former. That is fine and understandable and perhaps you are right. However, because I can actually hear more musical content, it leads me to conclude that my analog front end is better than my digital front end and simply extracts more information out of the media, even if the signal embedded in that media has been degraded by the conversion process. I hold open the possibility that a top level analog front end can in fact extract more data from an LP with less objectionable distortion than can a top digital player from a CD, at least one that is redbook standard.

Peter, as far as I'm concerned, you can prefer whatever you prefer and hold open any possibilities you like, and I wish you nothing but listening pleasure. Enjoy.

Tim
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Unfortunately they seem to have convinced a significant part of the marketing arm of the music industry as well..

Not so significant. Growing quickly and still a tiny fraction of a shrinking industry. And the only thing I think is unfortunate is that some producers seem to think that if they produce a relatively uncompressed master for vinyl, they've covered the audiophile crowd and can compress the snot out of everything else. I wish they would just offer two masters in every media. Give us a choice.

Tim
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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...And the only thing I think is unfortunate is that some producers seem to think that if they produce a relatively uncompressed master for vinyl, they've covered the audiophile crowd and can compress the snot out of everything else...
Tim
That's the part of the industry that I'm talking about because that's all that I care about :mad:
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Unfortunately they seem to have convinced a significant part of the marketing arm of the music industry as well..

Maybe the message here is that the record companies think that people who are buying records are much more serious about the quality of their sound and they expect to have the best that the record companies can provide in terms of sound quality and dynamic range. And maybe just maybe they think that people who are buying CDs are less discriminating and aren't listening to their music over the same quality systems as those who are playing LPs and they are therefore catering to a different market.
 

microstrip

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May 30, 2010
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Yes, let's not descend into another analog/digital food fight. I'm more concerned about different mix/masters being foisted upon us in the quest for more profit.....

Gary,

The best way of avoiding the analog/digital food fight would be putting some weight in the other pan of the balance scale. Do you know of cases where a good mastering could make a CD sound better than the original good quality analog LP? We should avoid the Beatles, otherwise we will have a Beatles fight ...
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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_
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Maybe the message here is that the record companies think that people who are buying records are much more serious about the quality of their sound and they expect to have the best that the record companies can provide in terms of sound quality and dynamic range. And maybe just maybe they think that people who are buying CDs are less discriminating and aren't listening to their music over the same quality systems as those who are playing LPs and they are therefore catering to a different market.

Could be, although it doesn't explain why hires downloads and SACD's wouldn't have the better mastering as well. I also think they are seduced by what they perceive as the built-in "copy protection" of LP's.
 

JackD201

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I'm not an archivist either, Jack. And I don't hold that the master must be left untouched. The master itself is highly manipulated. If it sounds good, it is good. But what you're talking about is preference. Is it dogmatic of me to insist on a clear line between preference and claims of superiority? Maybe in another endeavor. In the audiophile hobby, where the clear superiority of conventional wisdoms is aggressively asserted against all evidence, where challenging that "wisdom" is likely to get your ears, your system, your listening experience insulted, it's a survival technique. The analog/vinyl crowd is so convinced that their choice should be everybody's choice that dissent is not tolerated. I can't actually like what I like; there has to be some deficiency somewhere, or I would agree with them. That's the clear message.

I got'cher dogma right there...

Tim

Standards differ. Whenever I see an analog vs digital debate what I see is one side imposing their standards over the other and vice versa. The aggression is present on both sides too. Heck, the aggression is present in digital vs digital debates, sometimes even more so.

The analog/vinyl crowd is so convinced that their choice should be everybody's choice that dissent is not tolerated.

This is the kind of statement that elicits aggression. You and I both know there are people on both sides that do this projection thing. The same accusation can be hurled at digital only advocates.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Could be, although it doesn't explain why hires downloads and SACD's wouldn't have the better mastering as well. I also think they are seduced by what they perceive as the built-in "copy protection" of LP's.

You have brought up an angle that I didn't think of with regards to record companies possibly not worrying about giving us super-high quality LPs because they aren't worried about people making a perfect one-for-one copy like they can with digital. You may or may not be on to something there.
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Gary,

The best way of avoiding the analog/digital food fight would be putting some weight in the other pan of the balance scale. Do you know of cases where a good mastering could make a CD sound better than the original good quality analog LP? We should avoid the Beatles, otherwise we will have a Beatles fight ...

We've already mentioned in this thread a number of albums where the CD (or higher res digital) sounds better than the LP to most listeners (assuming there are some diehards who refuse to believe a CD can ever sound better).
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Maybe the message here is that the record companies think that people who are buying records are much more serious about the quality of their sound and they expect to have the best that the record companies can provide in terms of sound quality and dynamic range. And maybe just maybe they think that people who are buying CDs are less discriminating and aren't listening to their music over the same quality systems as those who are playing LPs and they are therefore catering to a different market.

I think that's pretty obvious; there aren't very many vinyl fans out there running cheap systems. That would be pretty pointless. I also think it has to do with listening locations. Nobody is listening to vinyl in the car or on their iPhone in the train station.

But yes, we all know there are digital audiophiles, but there are almost no vinyl non-audiophiles. A rare bird, that one.

Tim
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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You have brought up an angle that I didn't think of with regards to record companies possibly not worrying about giving us super-high quality LPs because they aren't worried about people making a perfect one-for-one copy like they can with digital. You may or may not be on to something there.
Not my idea, as far as I can recall it's been discussed for years (since about the beginning of the "LP revival")
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I think that's pretty obvious; there aren't very many vinyl fans out there running cheap systems. That would be pretty pointless. I also think it has to do with listening locations. Nobody is listening to vinyl in the car or on their iPhone in the train station.

But yes, we all know there are digital audiophiles, but there are almost no vinyl non-audiophiles. A rare bird, that one.

Tim

I don't know about that one Tim. There are lots of cheap tables being sold to young people who want to get into vinyl. Everybody has to start somewhere and I don't know if people who are buying $500 tables consider themselves audiophiles or music lovers.
 

rbbert

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...But yes, we all know there are digital audiophiles, but there are almost no vinyl non-audiophiles. A rare bird, that one.

Tim
Most of your post made sense, but you really missed the boat here. In fact, it's likely there would be no LP revival if it weren't for the non-audiophiles buying LP's.
 

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