Actually, most of that list is from the digital era, and most of them do sound better in digital (which may be SACD or hires PCM, though, as some are available that way).
I'm sorry you don't like it, Tim, but vinyl does sound better. I have a number of those same recordings on both formats, some as multiple pressings.
Edit: I took a look at your profile in hopes of seeing your system. Had to Google most of it. No disrespect meant, is it some sort of a head-fi-like desk setup?
I have a headphone system and I have a pair of active monitors. They're not the best anymore, but they're very good and I'd put them up against the most high-end systems from 60 cycles up. Bottom end? Nope.
Vinyl sounds different, Felix. I"m glad you enjoy it.
Tim
Actually, most of that list is from the digital era, and most of them do sound better in digital (which may be SACD or hires PCM, though, as some are available that way).
So you do have a head-fi-type kid system. There's no need to be condescending. I wasn't just born yesterday and my system doesn't fit on a desk. In all truth, I don't even see how you have the audio setup that allows you to discuss this. You see me jumping into threads that deal with topics beyond my realm of experience and expertise? Let's at least try to stay realistic.
This is correct.
When you start with digital masters and you make vinyl, all you can do is degrade the signal. it is impossible not to. It doesn't matter how good your table or your system is, you still have to go down a couple of analog generations to get to the first pressing. Is it audible? I don't know. But anybody who understands squat about recording and reproducing analog audio knows there is no advantage there. It can't get better. It can only degrade the signal. Now, when it's all said and done, vinyl has a sound of it's own. If you like it, excellent. Enjoy. Better? In any way that has any meaning beyond your opinion and those who agree with you? Nope. You disagree? You think it's "better," not just preferred? Tell me how that master got better in the process of making a record. Provide some supporting data. Argue like a grownup.
Tim
And it's not possible to degrade the digital copy? Did you read Barry Diament's comments?
As one of the first engineers to master for CD, my opinion was always that digital was a step down from vinyl in terms of capturing the sound of the source. In fact, I said so (shyly at the time) at a very early meeting of the AES in New York when I sat on a panel of mastering engineers. Mine was the only voice in the room that said anything other than high praise for CD and digital. (It took over 20 years before I heard digital that I felt could challenge vinyl and that was only with the very few converters that could *truly* do 4x rates properly-- and only at the 4x rates, not less.)
Regarding supposedly identical CDs sounding different, there are a number of things at play. First , you mention two mastering houses. As soon as two different engineers are brought into the equation, I would withdraw any and all bets. Now, let's talk about the same engineer in all instances: I have said, since the first CD I mastered in January of 1983, that pressed CDs made at different plants (often on different lines at the same plant) all sound different from each other and that *none* sounds indistinguishable from the master from which it was made.
In my experience, this is still just as true today (though some plants make CDs that differ from the master to a much lesser degree than others do). It is true when the disc is played in any transport or player in my experience. Interestingly, when the different sounding discs are properly extracted to a computer hard drive (in a raw PCM format, such as .aif or .wav), the sonic differences go away and they now *do* sound indistinguishable from the master used to make them.
Of course it is possible to degrade a digital copy, But that's not the point and neither is Barry's opinion. The point is that if you start with a digital master, it cannot get better on it's way to vinyl. The additional analog generations can only add noise and distortion and lose signal. There's no way to deny that and stay rooted in reality, therefore, vinyl, from the same digital master, cannot be "better" than digital. You can like it better, and I sincerely wish you all the pleasure you get from that. But generations of analog do not lose noise and distortion and gain bandwidth. It doesn't happen. To argue that it does is absurd. And that is what Shaffer was doing. Even if my system was the toy tabletop audio he'd like to believe it is, it wouldn't change that.
Tim
Of course it can. You can talk about the electronics, filters, etc used in digital playback. Stuff that ain't in the signal path with analog. People gotta stop using analog measurements to evaluate digital playback. NO different than when solid-state amplifier came out.
And what are all the additional "analog generations?" There's one. They go directly from the digital copy to lacquer. Where's the extra generations?
And don't wish me about liking it better. I don't listen to digital put on vinyl except in rare circumstances.
Why? So you can tell me how much better thy vinyl sounds? I grow weary of this game...
Tunnel of Love - Bruce Springsteen
Brothers in Arms - Dire Straits
Blue Country Heart - Jorma Kaukonen
This Time - Dwight Yoakam
Alison Kraus and Union Station Live
It's Too Late To Stop Now - Van Morrison
Gershwin's World - Herbie Hancock
Pergolesi: Stabat Mater -- Andres Scholl, Barbara Bonney, Christophe Rousett and Les Talens Lyriques
Car Wheels on a Gravel Road - Lucinda Williams
Joshua Judges Roth - Lyle Lovett
Bare Bones - Madeline Peroux
Red = Luck - Patty Larkin
Graceland - Paul Simon
The List - Rosanne Cash
Just a Little Lovin' Shelby Lynn
Annunciation - The Subdudes.
Astral Weeks Live at the Hollywood Bowl - Van Morrison
Avalon Sunset - Van Morrison
Tim
...
And what are all the additional "analog generations?" There's one. ...
We have descended into yet another analog/digital food fight. This was all predictable, but I don't think it was what Gary had in mind when he started this thread. The thing is, we are damn good at these fights now because we have had so much practice. The only problem is that the analog guys have the better side of the argument so we always win.
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