Why every music lover needs to buy a turntable - discuss.

Johnny Vinyl

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May 16, 2010
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That is not what I've seen in my travels over the last 6 months. Record player sales are booming - not the stuff that we here care about, but my distributor is importing the fully-automatic Thorens RD240 turntable ($1,200 retail) in container-loads. He has a 20-ft container coming in that has already been pre-sold, and a 40-ft container coming in that has already been almost half sold.

The stores had run out of the lower-priced Rega, Project and Music Hall turntable over the Christmas selling season. 16 year olds were asking for turntables as Christmas presents.


My local LP guy started selling Pro-ject tables and Ortofon cartridges last year. He can't get them fast enough!
 

asindc

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Sep 27, 2012
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The final distribution medium and specifically where they prospectively will be played and with what ideally dictates the mix and master. It is not unusual to have the mix engineer do a dub and take that to his car and drive around just as an example. If people really want to know the real reason the loudness wars started, it started with portable radios, long before digital entered the market.

LPs will be played at home. The lower noise floor allows for more USABLE dynamic range. CDs are both portable and ubiquitous. The production team needs to factor in the worst case scenarios like as mentioned, car audio. We know what a hostile environment that is with all the road and engine noise. The LP producer doesn't have to worry about that. Now we have Mastered for iTunes which by spec should be better than CD preps because they are primarily geared to headphone users who are more protected against external noise especially when using IEMs or close backed headphones. Even with buds and open backs the level of external noise is less. Just not as good. No need to squash that mix as much either.

Now this is not to say things can't swing around the other way completely. I've come across some (now defunct) "audiophile" labels that churned out CDs that were so quiet on one end that you had to constantly ride the volume control and on the other end played with processing so much to make things sickeningly airy highlighting reverb and decay trails. In a word, gimmicky. Then there are the labels trying to cash in on the vinyl resurgence. No surprise the LPs sound awful compared to the CDs from which they were derived.

Many of us are drawn to the sound quality of recordings done from the 50's to 70's, even guys like me who were born after the golden age of recording. I believe the glue is that this was the period where most listening was done at home with free space stereos. It was the time where a lot of people just sat down and listened. Recordings of the period reflected the listening habits of the market.

I've said it many times before that Mastering is the icing on the cake. The whole cake starts with the musicians and ends with the audience. Now try to imagine the infinite number of choices that are made throughout the entire process from creation to production to reproduction to appreciation. It is simply mind boggling.

I collect music, I'll take it in the format that works for where and how I'm going to be playing it. The hardest part is getting the system to play equally well regardless of format. Physical set up will always skew towards the best possible performance of the most used and preferred format at some compromise to others. Human nature. :)

The producers at Motown famously outfitted their recording studios with the exact same speakers that that Chrysler, Ford, and GM were installing in their cars, and recorded and mastered the sound specifically for those speakers.
 
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JackD201

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Everybody else just used Horror Tones (Auratones) :D
 

garylkoh

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Gary,

In my experience, the best recording of any musical piece is somewhat random. My 24/96 download of Britches Brew is so much better than the original vinyl pressing I have that it is not even worth discussing. Conversely, Norah Jones' debut album is clearly better on vinyl than on CD. In my experience, it is not format dependent as much as quality of mastering dependent.

Thanks, good to know. I have numerous versions of Bitches Brew on LP - including the singles on red wax. The CD is pretty sad, so I'll be getting the 24/96 download if it's really that good.

I'm not debating format here - I'm saying that it's a different master.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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Tim, it's not a preference of the sound of vinyl over the sound of digital. I'm as agnostic as they come.

I think that the source of the vinyl and the source of the digital are different. They are different masters, and could even be a different mix. That was the premise of my OP.

I don't disagree, but I think in many, many cases, outside of the most popular genres, it is a small difference, not the huge, world-threatening problem it is positioned as in our small hobbyists' world. I'm certainly not buying a vinyl set up so I can get better dynamic range out of Daft Punk. I seriously doubt if it would be worth it to gain the difference between vinyl and digital on Susan Tedeschi in Austin, either. I've got a whole lot of digital that is very well mastered. I don't think I'd trade it for the tonality of vinyl to gain a bit of dynamic range. That, however, is subjective, and YMMV.

Tim
 

BobM

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Feb 5, 2014
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Tim,

Agreed on the "new" non-audiophile vinyl releases. Picked up a few lately, and got the enclosed CD as well. There is little to no difference between them. They are mastered the same and just presented in a different format. Actually don't think there is any reason to get the vinyl version of a new release anymore, other than to say I have it because it could be worth something more to the fans somewhere down the road.

Now audiophile label re-releases are a different story.

Bob
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim,

Agreed on the "new" non-audiophile vinyl releases. Picked up a few lately, and got the enclosed CD as well. There is little to no difference between them. They are mastered the same and just presented in a different format. Actually don't think there is any reason to get the vinyl version of a new release anymore, other than to say I have it because it could be worth something more to the fans somewhere down the road.

Now audiophile label re-releases are a different story.

Bob

When you buy those audiophile re-releases on vinyl, is a CD of the same master packaged with them?

Tim
 

asiufy

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Jul 8, 2011
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When you buy those audiophile re-releases on vinyl, is a CD of the same master packaged with them?

Tim

Some LPs nowadays come with a CD, but it's hard to know for sure if they're from the same source.

Apparently the LP version of the new Beck album has a CD labelled "The Vinyl Experience", that was compared against the regular CD, and sounds different (better). Why would an artist/label do that is beyond me, but basically, they're killing the format that's most likely in need to saving (CDs).

CA has the scoop: http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/569-and-winner-%85/


alexandre
 

mep

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Apr 20, 2010
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The bottom line here is that despite the title of Gary's thread, all audiophiles who don't like vinyl aren't about to go out and buy a table at this point in their lives. Personally, I'm glad I grew up with LPs and turntables and never abandoned them. I'm also glad that I have continued to try and improve the quality of my LP playback system (and it is a system) because my work has paid off in the form of better sound, less noise, and more information coming from records that I already thought I knew so well. Never mind how much new great sounding vinyl is currently available. If this isn't the golden age of audio, I don't know what is.
 

jazdoc

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Aug 7, 2010
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The bottom line here is that despite the title of Gary's thread, all audiophiles who don't like vinyl aren't about to go out and buy a table at this point in their lives. Personally, I'm glad I grew up with LPs and turntables and never abandoned them. I'm also glad that I have continued to try and improve the quality of my LP playback system (and it is a system) because my work has paid off in the form of better sound, less noise, and more information coming from records that I already thought I knew so well. Never mind how much new great sounding vinyl is currently available. If this isn't the golden age of audio, I don't know what is.

+1!
 

microstrip

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(...) I have hundreds of great-sounding CDs that were originally recorded in analog era.

Tim

Tim,

I have no doubt of that. Can you list a dozen, preferably of well known works, as it will increase the probability that we also own the vinyl?
 

MylesBAstor

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microstrip

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(...) A final example - Beck. I love this guitarist, and I frequently demo with his albums. His latest is Morning Phase. Same thing. CD and even the HDTracks 24/96 downloads are flat and boring when compared to the vinyl. What was amazing was that I saw that the DR of the free mp3 download that came with the LP had DR close to the vinyl, and higher than the high-rez download :confused: Now, I've got to download that mp3 - to add to my demo collection of mp3 tracks that sound better than the CD :)

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=morning+phase

Discuss.

Gary,

You were right about the 26/96. See the latest news at the Stereophile site:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/becks-imorning-phasei-and-vinyl-experience

The spectrogram seems clear:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/beck-track-11

I will stay with plastic CDs and vinyl LPs ...
 

MylesBAstor

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Apr 20, 2010
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I understand but do disagree . Cd,s are dying I agree to that part as now it's downloads for most. But records as a whole i do not use and do not understand the economics of it. But my disagreement stems from the fact there is no sales of record players in commercial brick and morter stores including the internet. The only avenue of purchase is at dedecated hi fi shops. That tells me it is a very specialized item and I understand most of what we buy is. But this is a device to play a medium as such there cannot be booming sales of records. I guess in the end it comes down to how badly do want the best sound and even that is confusing .
Al

Sorry but that's simply not true. I've been in many record/CD stores that sell Project tts among many others.
 

garylkoh

WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
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The bottom line here is that despite the title of Gary's thread, all audiophiles who don't like vinyl aren't about to go out and buy a table at this point in their lives. Personally, I'm glad I grew up with LPs and turntables and never abandoned them. I'm also glad that I have continued to try and improve the quality of my LP playback system (and it is a system) because my work has paid off in the form of better sound, less noise, and more information coming from records that I already thought I knew so well. Never mind how much new great sounding vinyl is currently available. If this isn't the golden age of audio, I don't know what is.

+1

However, better quality on vinyl might help grow a new generation of audiophiles away from ear-buds. That's what I am hoping for. I need a legion of new customers to come in, and hopefully be able to afford a pair of my speakers in 10 years.

In the meantime, for less than $5,000 a killer system can be assembled with an automatic turntable, an integrated amp, and a nice pair of bookshelves. Unfortunately, costs has gone up tremendously because my system when I was in university cost less than 300 stg pounds - Rega 2, Creek 4040, Mission 70.
 

rbbert

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Dec 12, 2010
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Like most here I grew up with vinyl and don't miss it except for record company crap like this. It's going to come back and bite them (if it hasn't already).
 

Shaffer

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Nov 2, 2012
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Sorry but that's simply not true. I've been in many record/CD stores that sell Project tts among many others.

Our city supports 7 independent record stores, 3 of which have a fairly extensive stock of audio gear. Mostly vintage, but as you mention Pro-ject, too, and now U-turn. FWIW, I'm there at least once a week. The gear is always turning over, especially the older turntables. Receivers and turntables seem to fly off the racks.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Tim,

I have no doubt of that. Can you list a dozen, preferably of well known works, as it will increase the probability that we also own the vinyl?

Why? So you can tell me how much better thy vinyl sounds? I grow weary of this game...

Tunnel of Love - Bruce Springsteen
Brothers in Arms - Dire Straits
Blue Country Heart - Jorma Kaukonen
This Time - Dwight Yoakam
Alison Kraus and Union Station Live
It's Too Late To Stop Now - Van Morrison
Gershwin's World - Herbie Hancock
Pergolesi: Stabat Mater -- Andres Scholl, Barbara Bonney, Christophe Rousett and Les Talens Lyriques
Car Wheels on a Gravel Road - Lucinda Williams
Joshua Judges Roth - Lyle Lovett
Bare Bones - Madeline Peroux
Red = Luck - Patty Larkin
Graceland - Paul Simon
The List - Rosanne Cash
Just a Little Lovin' Shelby Lynn
Annunciation - The Subdudes.
Astral Weeks Live at the Hollywood Bowl - Van Morrison
Avalon Sunset - Van Morrison

Tim
 

Shaffer

New Member
Nov 2, 2012
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Why? So you can tell me how much better thy vinyl sounds? I grow weary of this game...

Tunnel of Love - Bruce Springsteen
Brothers in Arms - Dire Straits
Blue Country Heart - Jorma Kaukonen
This Time - Dwight Yoakam
Alison Kraus and Union Station Live
It's Too Late To Stop Now - Van Morrison
Gershwin's World - Herbie Hancock
Pergolesi: Stabat Mater -- Andres Scholl, Barbara Bonney, Christophe Rousett and Les Talens Lyriques
Car Wheels on a Gravel Road - Lucinda Williams
Joshua Judges Roth - Lyle Lovett
Bare Bones - Madeline Peroux
Red = Luck - Patty Larkin
Graceland - Paul Simon
The List - Rosanne Cash
Just a Little Lovin' Shelby Lynn
Annunciation - The Subdudes.
Astral Weeks Live at the Hollywood Bowl - Van Morrison
Avalon Sunset - Van Morrison

Tim

I'm sorry you don't like it, Tim, but vinyl does sound better. I have a number of those same recordings on both formats, some as multiple pressings.

Edit: I took a look at your profile in hopes of seeing your system. Had to Google most of it. No disrespect meant, is it some sort of a head-fi-like desk setup?
 

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