Why every music lover needs to buy a turntable - discuss.

garylkoh

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Plus one for me too. I know Paul at ps audio has aid he cannot tell the his records when ripped with his new wave dsd recorder . I would be willing to pay for rips if legal. But would like to try it myself with about spending meow than 10k.

Al

For way under 10k - Thorens TD309/Denon 103/Thorens MM008 ADC and a computer running Audacity (free). Unfortunately, the KorgMR2000S is no longer available. There are lots of solutions out there, but none will guarantee a better rip. However, as Tim will no doubt point out, you are trading in one distortion for another.

I'm sure that it would be far better to get a copy of the digital master from which the vinyl was cut.
 

jazdoc

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Anybody have examples where the CD/SACD/Download has much better sonics than vinyl?

The two most recent Phosphorescent releases; "Muchacho" and "Here's To Taking It Easy". The CDs are average sound quality at best, the vinyl is execrable.
 

Shaffer

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I believe what Gary is saying. But when I had my cheap turntable, even new LPs had pops and clicks and I could not stand that. Nothing would pull me out of music faster than that.

So what is the cheapest turntable+cartridge+cleaner or whatever else is needed that will play LPs without this annoyance? If there is such a thing, I wouldn't mind buying the LP, ripping it and then listening to it that was as I too have to be able to jump tracks and such.

VPI 16.5 RCM with DD brushes and Record Time fluid for light cleaning.
Rega P25 with an AT OC9mkII from LPgear
A warm-sounding phono stage of your choice.

The Rega with the OC9 was one of the quietest (in terms of surface/groove noise) combos I've ever had in my system. Like, flip your head 360 degrees quiet. Still don't get it.
 

microstrip

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It probably would sound as good as the vinyl - it would also be illegal to sell a copy of your LP to someone else.

Should we consider that the clicks have copyright? :) Otherwise if you have an old LP, you could ask someone to make you a copy of his own pristine one.
 

MadFloyd

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A final example - Jeff Beck. I love this guitarist, and I frequently demo with his albums. His latest is Morning Phase. Same thing. CD and even the HDTracks 24/96 downloads are flat and boring when compared to the vinyl. What was amazing was that I saw that the DR of the free mp3 download that came with the LP had DR close to the vinyl, and higher than the high-rez download :confused: Now, I've got to download that mp3 - to add to my demo collection of mp3 tracks that sound better than the CD :)

http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=&album=morning+phase

Discuss.

I love Jeff Beck too and I wish he had a new album, but he doesn't. Just like there's a difference between digital and analog mastering, there's a significant difference between Jeff Beck and 'Beck'. :)
 

garylkoh

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I love Jeff Beck too and I wish he had a new album, but he doesn't. Just like there's a difference between digital and analog mastering, there's a significant difference between Jeff Beck and 'Beck'. :)

Whoops. Beck's much younger and more ambient sound. Great album nonetheless.
 

Lagonda

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First off, I love good vinyl! 20 years ago I played 90% vinyl and 10% CD, now the numbers have been reversed. Digital has gotten very good. Is the music industrie in general interested in making the best sounding product they can? No, they want to make the product they can make the most money selling! The business has been decimate by digital pirating/copying, and a return to vinyl is a dream come true! Much higher prices from audio fanatics like us is a start, but making vinyl cool to the younger generation is the ultimate goal. One copy sold to every listener like in the old days! You can make average vinyl sound better than digital even on mid-fi systems, if you make digital bad.
 

Shaffer

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First off, I love good vinyl! 20 years ago I played 90% vinyl and 10% CD, now the numbers have been reversed. Digital has gotten very good. Is the music industrie in general interested in making the best sounding product they can? No, they want to make the product they can make the most money selling! The business has been decimate by digital pirating/copying, and a return to vinyl is a dream come true! Much higher prices from audio fanatics like us is a start, but making vinyl cool to the younger generation is the ultimate goal. One copy sold to every listener like in the old days! You can make average vinyl sound better than digital even on mid-fi systems, if you make digital bad.

It's a good argument, except for one thing. Last year (in the US) there were ~165.4M CDs sold, whose highest cost of physical production consists mainly of the packaging. On the contrary, there were ~4.5M LPs sold, as reported by Soundscan. We can optimistically stretch that number to ~7M, I'm guessing. LPs are enormously more expensive to manufacture, in comparison, and much more expensive to distribute. To me, the whole vinyl thing - at least on the part of the majors - is to get folks back into the stores. I just don't see where the big profit is on an aggregate scale.
 

Asamel

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Just about every new LP release comes with a download card for (usually) an mp3 version.

Bruce in PA
 

Gregadd

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How about a billion los?
 

MylesBAstor

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It's a good argument, except for one thing. Last year (in the US) there were ~165.4M CDs sold, whose highest cost of physical production consists mainly of the packaging. On the contrary, there were ~4.5M LPs sold, as reported by Soundscan. We can optimistically stretch that number to ~7M, I'm guessing. LPs are enormously more expensive to manufacture, in comparison, and much more expensive to distribute. To me, the whole vinyl thing - at least on the part of the majors - is to get folks back into the stores. I just don't see where the big profit is on an aggregate scale.

I look at it another way. With the whole music industry in dire straits (NPI), being able to add another 10% to your bottom line might mean the difference between profitability and bust.
 

Alrainbow

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Myles I see your point, but you should consider this. Would you invest in something that might yield a small profit , but could loose far more than the foreseeable profit ?
I run several small businesses I there are aspects of it that loose all the time but are needed to make a profit in many others. Maybe vinyl is the small loss for the other gains .
And consider we are the people that buy into this audio game , and we argue as to what is best and we know there is none .

Al
 

MylesBAstor

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Myles I see your point, but you should consider this. Would you invest in something that might yield a small profit , but could loose far more than the foreseeable profit ?
I run several small businesses I there are aspects of it that loose all the time but are needed to make a profit in many others. Maybe vinyl is the small loss for the other gains .
And consider we are the people that buy into this audio game , and we argue as to what is best and we know there is none .

Al

I don't see the risk (save from returns - that was always the medium's Achilles heel) especially since the vast majority of the LPs being made come from digital transfers. It's CDs that I see as the bigger risk nowadays.
 

Alrainbow

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I understand but do disagree . Cd,s are dying I agree to that part as now it's downloads for most. But records as a whole i do not use and do not understand the economics of it. But my disagreement stems from the fact there is no sales of record players in commercial brick and morter stores including the internet. The only avenue of purchase is at dedecated hi fi shops. That tells me it is a very specialized item and I understand most of what we buy is. But this is a device to play a medium as such there cannot be booming sales of records. I guess in the end it comes down to how badly do want the best sound and even that is confusing .
Al
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Plus one for me too. I know Paul at ps audio has aid he cannot tell the his records when ripped with his new wave dsd recorder . I would be willing to pay for rips if legal. But would like to try it myself with about spending meow than 10k.

Al

There shouldn't be any legal issues if you own the LPs.

Tim
 

Phelonious Ponk

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OK,
We had thousands of great masters made for vinyl done during decades. Should we believe that engineers decided to downgrade their quality deliberately when they were transcribed to CD?

I am really happy to be considered part of "a more sophisticated audience that listens at home." :)

You're gonna believe what you're gonna believe, Micro. I have hundreds of great-sounding CDs that were originally recorded in analog era.

Tim
 

Phelonious Ponk

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You should hear the 2LP. Seriously.

I'd love to. I'd love to be able to compare them, side by side, with you. And I'd bet that we'd find that the difference, in a recording of that genre an era is maybe a little bit of the mastering, maybe, but mostly a preference for the sound of one media vs the other. Vinyl will always sound different from digital. Unless it is a digital rip of the vinyl. If you prefer the sound of vinyl, there's nothing to debate there.

Tim
 

garylkoh

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Tim, it's not a preference of the sound of vinyl over the sound of digital. I'm as agnostic as they come.

I think that the source of the vinyl and the source of the digital are different. They are different masters, and could even be a different mix. That was the premise of my OP.
 

garylkoh

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But my disagreement stems from the fact there is no sales of record players in commercial brick and morter stores including the internet. The only avenue of purchase is at dedecated hi fi shops. That tells me it is a very specialized item and I understand most of what we buy is. But this is a device to play a medium as such there cannot be booming sales of records. I guess in the end it comes down to how badly do want the best sound and even that is confusing .
Al

That is not what I've seen in my travels over the last 6 months. Record player sales are booming - not the stuff that we here care about, but my distributor is importing the fully-automatic Thorens RD240 turntable ($1,200 retail) in container-loads. He has a 20-ft container coming in that has already been pre-sold, and a 40-ft container coming in that has already been almost half sold.

The stores had run out of the lower-priced Rega, Project and Music Hall turntable over the Christmas selling season. 16 year olds were asking for turntables as Christmas presents.
 

asindc

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Sep 27, 2012
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Gary,

In my experience, the best recording of any musical piece is somewhat random. My 24/96 download of Britches Brew is so much better than the original vinyl pressing I have that it is not even worth discussing. Conversely, Norah Jones' debut album is clearly better on vinyl than on CD. In my experience, it is not format dependent as much as quality of mastering dependent.
 

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