I don't know your angle Tim. I really don't. I don't because I don't know WHAT you consider UN-distorted. When you spout about people preferring distortion you A) have to be clear what it is being distorted and B) know what undistorted sounds like in the first place. Now be honest with me. Do you? EVERYTHING is manipulated. The choice of microphone is a manipulation. Let's leave analog out of this for a minute. DACs do not all sound alike. Would you say people like a particular DACs more because it is distorted? I bet not huh. Yet you are eager to pounce on another medium that also sounds different and project this very reason. When you choose say one type of dither over another on Amarra, sound will differ. Which one is "more distorted"? Can you tell me? Have you not manipulated the signal at it's very core when you do this? There are samples on youtube where dither is not used versus used. un-dithered SUCKS. If you leave settings at default, you've just left the decision to somebody else. That's exactly what Tim has done by going to a fully integrated system. That is not wrong. It is not. Just don't fool yourself that it is anymore true because NOBODY and I mean NOBODY has ever HEARD what the truth is because ALL monitoring chains are compromised.
So let's talk pudding. End results. Referencing what Tim asks, WHAT DO YOU HEAR? It's not so much what I hear but what I SHOULDN'T hear. The vinyl distortion, from a well sorted rig playing a clean, unworn LP TO ME is less offensive than poorly implemented digital. It is the type of noise easily filtered and listened past compared to a character that is in a nutshell, artificial. Noise shaping and dither work under the same framework, it should be low enough to be effectively masked during playback. That doesn't mean I like the distortion of analog and that is the leap you've made that frankly IMO you have not supported. All gross playback distortions suck, it's provenance matters not. What matters is getting it low enough so as not to be so damned bothersome.
Everybody is free to theorize but man, you want to ram this down our throats you have to come armed with a full controlled study with a sample size large enough to support an acceptable level of confidence. Get that peer reviewed while you're at it. Until then IMO you are in no place to make us admit to nothing more than an untested theory on your part.
Vinyl has more distortion. Sure. People like vinyl BECAUSE of this distortion? Hang on buddy, that's a reach and you know it. cum hoc ergo propter hoc.
We're confused at this point, Jack. That's why you're not getting it. You are mixing my arguments with Tom's and I've mixed you up in a point I'm trying to make about the debate techniques (or lack thereof) of other members of this board, that I really don't think applies to you. In this discussion, at least, I'm not addressing vinyl's distortions, though it is a sidebar that can't be kept down. Let me see if I can break it down:
1) Much of the vinyl contingent insists that vinyl is superior.
2) They are so insistent that they refuse to accept that anyone could prefer digital unless there is something wrong with their listening experience, and all comers are subject to insult
3) Their uber-confident position is not, however, supported by any data. By all the standard metrics, vinyl performs worse than rebook. (Does digital have its own distortions? Of course, but remember, we're talking about people who refuse to allow that digital could even be a legitimate preference. They insist it is clearly inferior)
4) If vinyl is superior, not just preferred, the aforementioned industry standard metrics (THD, IMD, Crosstalk, FR....) can't be what they're hearing, so no, I'm not arguing that what they're hearing is distortion. I just want them to answer the question:
5) What is it?
#5 is where discussion always breaks down, because in spite of the fact that we're talking about the most mature playback technology still in use, they never have an answer. Whatever it is they hear, it has never been measured or documented. A WAG? A theory? Sure. Actual evidence of something present in vinyl and absent from digital other than the distortions and limitations that inevitably come into these conversations? Not that I've seen.
I'd be OK with it all if they were reasonable. If they want to believe their hearing some unmeasured quality in their preferred media, I wish them well. It is the fact that they will not allow anyone an alternate point of view that is not driven by some flaw in the dissenter's listening experience that pisses me off.
On the merits, these guys have got nothing but opinions. Their position is unsupported, but their smarmy, dismissive, arrogance is consummate. To put it plainly, I'm asking them to put up or shut up, and honestly expecting neither to happen. You're a good and reasonable man who, as well as I can remember, has never questioned anyone else's legitimate opinion. You're just running with the wrong crowd .
Tim