Why Some Audiophiles Fear Measurements

Kal Rubinson

Well-Known Member
May 4, 2010
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Ron

Where is Kal, cuz here is one for him.....
You called?

I have often wondered if all of us have some frequency which when heard triggers the stimulus of our auditory nerves in different ways. Or as you call it, " everyone has a different flavor preference"
I doubt it is as simple as that. While we do have different spectra of thresholds, most of the differences are matters of expectations and preferences. There have been times when I have sat with another listener (often another Stereophiler) at a show and discussed what we were hearing. In general, we could agree on what we were hearing but, often, we disagreed on how we felt about it. I believe we all have internal ideals of what we want the music to sound like, shaped more by experience than physiology. Hence, the reference/preference issue.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Jun 30, 2010
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But I already have an EQ which I use to stimulate myself.:D:D:D

Me too. Actually, I usually use EQ reductively, so maybe I'm un-stimulating myself. :)

P
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
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So how do you answer my question when I have nothing to measure anything with other than my ears? How do I go about obtaining measurements in my living space? I can't, so I place less importance on measurements and more importance on what my ears hear. Sure the reviews are a nice tool, but they have $20,000 worth of measuring instruments and a reference system that I couldn't even dream of attaining. While your reasoning seems somewhat sound, it doesn't encompass the vast majority of audiophiles who don't have the luxury of measuring.

It's not about ignorance...

John
 

Jeff Fritz

[Industry Expert]
Jun 7, 2010
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I throw it back at you. It is not us who fear meausrements. We have many on our side who can measure their ass off. It is the measurement crowd who fears listening. They do everything they can to discredit listening as a test from ABX to outrightt name calling.

From my own article: ". . . that it’s best to use everything at your disposal to judge an audio component, particularly if it really matters to you and you’re spending a lot of money. That includes listening, talking to dealers and other audiophiles, reading reviews, examining construction and finish quality, listening some more -- and, yes, examining measurements."

Bold added.
 

Steve Williams

Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
But at the end of the day that consumer is going to do one of two things

1. Buy the speaker he likes best regardless of how it measures

Or

2. Buy the speaker because of how it measure and not how it sounds

I would bet that if you took a survey (maybe we should) re how one buys speakers I would bet #1 as this speaker sounded best. Otherwise they have a speaker that measures great but doesn't "necessarily" meet their liking
 

Ron Party

WBF Founding Member
Apr 30, 2010
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But at the end of the day that consumer is going to do one of two things

1. Buy the speaker he likes best regardless of how it measures

Or

2. Buy the speaker because of how it measure and not how it sounds

I would bet that if you took a survey (maybe we should) re how one buys speakers I would bet #1 as this speaker sounded best. Otherwise they have a speaker that measures great but doesn't "necessarily" meet their liking
Or 3, buy the speaker because of how it measures and how it sounds?
 

Jeff Fritz

[Industry Expert]
Jun 7, 2010
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Jeff

Great article. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if I was the inspiration to the blog.

Here is my question. Why have I heard speaker systems in great rooms which measure terrific but does nothing for my ears? Also I have heard systems that measure just OK but sound terrific. I have also heard several systems in the the same day all of which measure terrific but only one sounded good to me

My question. No one hears the same. We all hear different. Is there reason to think that there are speakers that sound best to certain ears which but not others? After all if a speaker measures good and is heard in a good system, why wouldn't I like it

This brings me to my mantra in this hobby....... "remember that it is your ass in the sweetspot so make your decisions based on your ears and your wallet"

Steve, you typically just like what you like. I don't hear you beating folks over the head about the accuracy of this or that, that you own. So really, you just like what floats your boat and that's cool with me. So no, not the inspiration.

And as to your question, it's just your preference, which is fine.

It is when we start talking about high fidelity, and, when that is the true goal, that measurements need to come into play. And if you talk that talk, and don't understand the technical side, then folks will rightly question you.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
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I am not sure the issue has ever been what an audiophile buys or doesn't. But rather, how they attempt to prove their opinions in a forum! :) Jeff touches briefly on this. I don't think most people would care what someone does with their money. It becomes an argument when they like to prove to be right in the eyes of others....
 

Jeff Fritz

[Industry Expert]
Jun 7, 2010
435
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Or 3, buy the speaker because of how it measures and how it sounds?

In my line of work (my other work) we have something called "the totality of circumstances." I wrap it all up in a big ball, and usually there is a clear choice for me. If I can find a product that measures superb, is built to the nines, looks totally cool, and most importantly sounds simply fantastic, I'm all in. That's why I own the system I own.
 

Ron Party

WBF Founding Member
Apr 30, 2010
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So how do you answer my question when I have nothing to measure anything with other than my ears? How do I go about obtaining measurements in my living space? I can't, so I place less importance on measurements and more importance on what my ears hear. Sure the reviews are a nice tool, but they have $20,000 worth of measuring instruments and a reference system that I couldn't even dream of attaining. While your reasoning seems somewhat sound, it doesn't encompass the vast majority of audiophiles who don't have the luxury of measuring.

It's not about ignorance...

John
I find your posts on this forum to be quite genuine. You have posted before about a willingness to learn. We should all have this kind of open attitude, and not just in matters audio.

I'm sure you've been following the how-to-measure articles posted on this forum by Ethan and Nyal. The ante for acquiring the necessary equipment is less than $500.00. I would argue that is an incredibly small investment for such potentially large returns for a passion which you share with the rest of us, particularly when measured (no pun intended) against the cost of Audiophile gear and source material.
 

Jeff Fritz

[Industry Expert]
Jun 7, 2010
435
8
923
I don't think most people would care what someone does with their money. It becomes an argument when they like to prove to be right in the eyes of others....

Now that's exactly right in my eyes.
 

microstrip

VIP/Donor
May 30, 2010
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Jeff,

I think that it also runs the other way - some "measurers" are afraid of audiophiles.

At least, belonging to the former group in my professional life, I would not like to have to explain with measurements why a Teflon capacitor sounds different after 200 hours break-in ...
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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From my own article: ". . . that it’s best to use everything at your disposal to judge an audio component, particularly if it really matters to you and you’re spending a lot of money. That includes listening, talking to dealers and other audiophiles, reading reviews, examining construction and finish quality, listening some more -- and, yes, examining measurements."

Bold added.

Would not that be great. We could get some of the best measurement guys and observational reviewers in the same magazine. Then they would be forced to match thier observations with the measurements. Unfortunately what we have now is two armed camps throwing food at each other. The winners get our audio dollar.
 

Robh3606

Well-Known Member
Aug 24, 2010
1,470
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So how do you answer my question when I have nothing to measure anything with other than my ears? How do I go about obtaining measurements in my living space? I can't, so I place less importance on measurements and more importance on what my ears hear. Sure the reviews are a nice tool, but they have $20,000 worth of measuring instruments and a reference system that I couldn't even dream of attaining. While your reasoning seems somewhat sound, it doesn't encompass the vast majority of audiophiles who don't have the luxury of measuring.

It's not about ignorance...

John

There are affordable measurement systems and freeware where all you need is a computer with a half way decent sound card to use. I have both CLIO and LEAP, I build speakers as a hobby, both of which are on the expensive side and they cost me less than what some 2 meter interconnects list for. In this day and age anyone can afford a measurement system. There is simply no reason why you can't do measurements. 20k is way out of the ballpark try 1/10 of that for expensive software. Do a search for Holm Impulse as an example.

http://www.holmacoustics.com/holmimpulse.php

Rob:)
 

rsbeck

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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So how do you answer my question when I have nothing to measure anything with other than my ears? How do I go about obtaining measurements in my living space?

You wouldn't believe how much info you could get with just one consultation with an acoustic consultant. Then, at least you are armed with some solid info and you can make better decisions from that point on. In the long run, I bet you'll save enough avoiding costly detours to pay for that consultation many times over.
 

Nicholas Bedworth

WBF Founding Member
May 7, 2010
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Maui, where else?
@ The Smokester... when you're in the listening position, is the system turned on?

More seriously, notice that "understanding my room acoustics" doesn't necessarily involve spending any money?
 

Old Listener

New Member
Jul 18, 2010
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SF Bay area
naturelover.smugmug.com
@ The Smokester... when you're in the listening position, is the system turned on?

More seriously, notice that "understanding my room acoustics" doesn't necessarily involve spending any money?

Your response to The Smokester sounds rather condescending . The scenario that he described seems all too true to life to me. Here is an example where a common sense surfaced toward the end of the thread.

"Getting emotive sound"
http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/481734.aspx

Bill
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
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38
Calgary, AB
I find your posts on this forum to be quite genuine. You have posted before about a willingness to learn. We should all have this kind of open attitude, and not just in matters audio.

I'm sure you've been following the how-to-measure articles posted on this forum by Ethan and Nyal. The ante for acquiring the necessary equipment is less than $500.00. I would argue that is an incredibly small investment for such potentially large returns for a passion which you share with the rest of us, particularly when measured (no pun intended) against the cost of Audiophile gear and source material.

Thank you Ron, and yes I do try to learn by reading and participating. Quite frankly, I've already learned more about all things audiophile since joining WBF and my confidence in wanting to try different things that I knew nothing about before is growing rapidly. I will never be a true "measurement" guy, but knowing that I can do it for a paltry sum is very intriguing and something I'm going to have a serious look at.

And Rob, that site looks interesting. I don't have time to fully peruse it now, but I have bookmarked it for easy access. Thanks!

John
 

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