Inspired by a true story . . .
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php...-fear-measurements&catid=25:opinion&Itemid=27
http://www.ultraaudio.com/index.php...-fear-measurements&catid=25:opinion&Itemid=27
Why Some Audiophiles Fear Measurements
- Thread starter Jeff Fritz
- Start date
Indeed. Timely too, in light of the some of the threads here which have generated much discussion, such as fidelity to the source.
Quiz: My hi fi sounds great when I sitin the corner, but in the listening position there is no bass. Should I
1) Tube roll
2) Go on the 'Gon and buy some expensive cables
3) Try to understand my room acoustics through modeling, measurement, treatment and listening?
1) Tube roll
2) Go on the 'Gon and buy some expensive cables
3) Try to understand my room acoustics through modeling, measurement, treatment and listening?
I don' tfear measurements. I fear those who would take those measuremens and beat us over the head and force us to lisen to equipment that does not sound musical. I think Harry Pearson siad it best when he said Wilma Cozurt told him trust your ears. Don't lisen to them.Trust your ears. When they bring you the measurements and tell you this is the way it'' suppose to sound. Trust you ears. I've said it before and i guess it bears repeating. If an unkown entity is your reference, you have no reference. If you concede you don't know what the source sounds like, it is unknown.
I throw it back at you. It is not us who fear meausrements. We have many on our side who can measure their ass off. It is the measurement crowd who fears listening. They do everything they can to discredit listening as a test from ABX to outrightt name calling. You cannot have a cooking test without tasting because tasting is what it's all about. In the final analysis, it always comes down to listening. As some one else on this forum has already pointed out we can never know what the the listener actually heard. We have to take his word for it.
I throw it back at you. It is not us who fear meausrements. We have many on our side who can measure their ass off. It is the measurement crowd who fears listening. They do everything they can to discredit listening as a test from ABX to outrightt name calling. You cannot have a cooking test without tasting because tasting is what it's all about. In the final analysis, it always comes down to listening. As some one else on this forum has already pointed out we can never know what the the listener actually heard. We have to take his word for it.
Jeff
Great article. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if I was the inspiration to the blog.
Here is my question. Why have I heard speaker systems in great rooms which measure terrific but does nothing for my ears? Also I have heard systems that measure just OK but sound terrific. I have also heard several systems in the the same day all of which measure terrific but only one sounded good to me
My question. No one hears the same. We all hear different. Is there reason to think that there are speakers that sound best to certain ears which but not others? After all if a speaker measures good and is heard in a good system, why wouldn't I like it
This brings me to my mantra in this hobby....... "remember that it is your ass in the sweetspot so make your decisions based on your ears and your wallet"
Great article. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if I was the inspiration to the blog.
Here is my question. Why have I heard speaker systems in great rooms which measure terrific but does nothing for my ears? Also I have heard systems that measure just OK but sound terrific. I have also heard several systems in the the same day all of which measure terrific but only one sounded good to me
My question. No one hears the same. We all hear different. Is there reason to think that there are speakers that sound best to certain ears which but not others? After all if a speaker measures good and is heard in a good system, why wouldn't I like it
This brings me to my mantra in this hobby....... "remember that it is your ass in the sweetspot so make your decisions based on your ears and your wallet"
Generalizations such as those you've ascribed to both camps do as much harm to the industry as do things like the Intellichip and Shakti Stones. Maybe I should take the liberty of saying "When an Audiophile says 'Trust Your Ears' what he/she really means is "Trust Your Ears if, and only if, you can see, or someone told you, what would be hearing." Heaven forbid "Trust Your Ears" really means "Trust Only Your Ears" which is what *some* rationalists advocate.
Steve, you really answered your own questions, didn't you? One word: flavor choice. (OK, now I'm channeling Yogi Berra.)
And remember, while we all hear different, remove preconceptions from the equation and we hear more alike than many would admit. Sean Olive's testing would seem to confirm this.
And remember, while we all hear different, remove preconceptions from the equation and we hear more alike than many would admit. Sean Olive's testing would seem to confirm this.
Hi
That word again "Musical" ... What is the relationship between measurements and "musical"... I am lost here...
Now about the numbers... no one is beating anyone on the head ... but when a phenomenon can't be measured although it is produced by physical means .. Isn't it times to take a pause?
Now the measurement crowd of which I am a proud member has no fear of listening; as a matter of fact, it welcomes it .. Then it tries to correlate what can be reliably observed with the measurements.. This crowd seems to be more attracted with what is on a medium rather than an interpretation of it ... you know ... the notion of accuracy as opposed to musical .. which to me all music
That word again "Musical" ... What is the relationship between measurements and "musical"... I am lost here...
Now about the numbers... no one is beating anyone on the head ... but when a phenomenon can't be measured although it is produced by physical means .. Isn't it times to take a pause?
Now the measurement crowd of which I am a proud member has no fear of listening; as a matter of fact, it welcomes it .. Then it tries to correlate what can be reliably observed with the measurements.. This crowd seems to be more attracted with what is on a medium rather than an interpretation of it ... you know ... the notion of accuracy as opposed to musical .. which to me all music
I would like to steal a definition from Audyssey. They talk about reference versus preference when it comes to using there products and setting up levels. crossovers, etc in a home theater environment. Just because they assign values which (according to them) provide the ability for your system in your room to "measure" correctly against some theater standards ("reference"), doesn't' mean you will "prefer" what they do.
One could argue, for example, that Dunlavy speakers measured 5 important and well understood criteria better than any other speaker (I think they did but that is not the point of my comments). BUT, that doesn't mean everyone will like that sound. That same logic applies to every other component in our systems. I believe "preference" is a much stronger buying criteria than reference in both audio AND video. To the extent that measurements support or preference, then clearly all of the planets have aligned correctly and all is well in the world (of audio)
And, to address Jeff's article, if one "prefers" product A but measurements don't back up his preference, then the food fight begins. This "preference versus reference" discussion belongs in the same category as politics and religion.
One could argue, for example, that Dunlavy speakers measured 5 important and well understood criteria better than any other speaker (I think they did but that is not the point of my comments). BUT, that doesn't mean everyone will like that sound. That same logic applies to every other component in our systems. I believe "preference" is a much stronger buying criteria than reference in both audio AND video. To the extent that measurements support or preference, then clearly all of the planets have aligned correctly and all is well in the world (of audio)
And, to address Jeff's article, if one "prefers" product A but measurements don't back up his preference, then the food fight begins. This "preference versus reference" discussion belongs in the same category as politics and religion.
I don't think fear is the right word in either case. I certainly don't fear listening. I do it an hour or more a day, and I'm not talking about background music. I almost never listen to music in the "background." And I'm happy to let anyone trust their ears; I trust mine. I do, however, tire of people declaring their personal taste as more "natural" or more like "real music" than mine. Particularly when their preference exhibits lower fidelity to the only thing a playback system knows how to be faithful to - the recording. Prefer your color of choice. I will congratulate you. Tell me it is superior and I will not only disagree, and I may remind you that the data is on my side.
P
Ron
Where is Kal, cuz here is one for him.....I have often wondered if all of us have some frequency which when heard triggers the stimulus of our auditory nerves in different ways. Or as you call it, " everyone has a different flavor preference"
Where is Kal, cuz here is one for him.....I have often wondered if all of us have some frequency which when heard triggers the stimulus of our auditory nerves in different ways. Or as you call it, " everyone has a different flavor preference"
It is THIS sort of response that get's us nowhere. It is so combative and antagonistic and the usual sort of crap that get's thrown at *us*.
For me, all it shows is that you are not willing to learn or look at any other veiwpoint other than the ones you already hold.
How in the hell can I or do I force you to listen to equipment that sounds unmusical?? Look at what you wrote, it is more raving or rambling than contributory.
AND, if you really want to look at it disspassionately, you will see that the entire industry is built on YOUR premise, the best *we* can do is to try and point out where and why it is possible that your method can be misleading.
And, dogma and insult slinging is not limited to one side....and when it appears it serves no-one.
I'll leave it to you to evaluate where your post lies.
I've asked this question many times, usually met with a *shrug*.
I reckon the 'missing' measurements audiophiles seek (that explain why I like this speaker that measures 'poorly' and not that one which measures 'great') are our own 'personal' measurements.
What IS my hearing like?? Where are my dips and peaks in hearing.
What ratios of distortion do I find bearable or unbearable??
Just how sensitive am I to resonances in cones as opposed to that guy over there??
But no, no-one here on this forum or any other forum would know the answeres to these and many more questions.
Instead, we need to find this missing measurement unknown to science.
It is within (oohh, spooky sounds as I said that)
Terry
You have precisely echoed the point i am trying to make, to wit, measurements are good, just not the whole story BUT there are our own personal measurements. As the saying goes "this is what floats my sonic boat"
There are many pieces to the puzzle but IMHO the final piece to the puzzle is "our own personal measurements"
Or as Ron Party says, "this is my flavor preference"
You have precisely echoed the point i am trying to make, to wit, measurements are good, just not the whole story BUT there are our own personal measurements. As the saying goes "this is what floats my sonic boat"
There are many pieces to the puzzle but IMHO the final piece to the puzzle is "our own personal measurements"
Or as Ron Party says, "this is my flavor preference"
If that's true, then what the best and brightest of the "high-end" should be working on is measurements - yes, measurements - to find these personal stimulus frequencies, and design equalizers that adjust recordings to stimulate them.
P
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