Pairing speakers with the right amplifier.

Johnny Vinyl · Mar 2, 2014

Hi,

I hear a lot of talk about synergy between components and also proper marriages of speakers with certain amplifiers (perhaps all amplifiers). Reading that Speaker Brand A doesn't pair well with Amplifier Brand B, but works wonderful with Amplifier Brand C got me to thinking what amplifier I should consider down the road. I'm not really in the market at this time for one, but I'd like to know what brands perhaps I should look at when the time comes.

One thing I know is that I need more power for my Genesis G7.1f's as my small McIntosh MC122 (80wpc) can only do so much. I've already sent it into clipping mode several times in the past when I played my music a little louder. That doesn't happen often, but I'd like it to not happen at all.

Luckily I have access to a host of high-end audio shops here in Toronto, so I can audition quite a few brands, but obviously not everything. So without having the ability to test-drive some of these brands of amplifiers, how does one arrive at a decision for a proper pairing? Do you discount the ones you can't audition?

Whatever thoughts you have on the subject are welcomed. I really only want to learn from this thread. If you have a recommendation for me, great!

DaveyF · Mar 2, 2014

John, Budget?

Johnny Vinyl · Mar 2, 2014

DaveyF said:
John, Budget?

Just kinda making inquiries about some brands I should consider for the Genesis', but at full retail I can't justify anything above $5,000. Phono preamp comes first, so this is more a fact-finding thread.

DaveyF · Mar 2, 2014

Johnny Vinyl said:
Just kinda making inquiries about some brands I should consider for the Genesis', but at full retail I can't justify anything above $5,000. Phono preamp comes first, so this is more a fact-finding thread.

Couple of suggestions, John....both used.

http://app.audiogon.com/listings/so...o-power-amplifier-2014-03-01-amplifiers-80020

and this one: http://app.audiogon.com/listings/solid-state-edge-g8m-statement-amps-2014-02-21-amplifiers-29607

As to new...have to think on that one, LOL.

mep · Mar 2, 2014

I would think that Gary should have some great recommendations.

rbbert · Mar 2, 2014

I'm sure some of those Toronto dealers will allow an in-home trial, especially if they have some used or demo items. A Pass Labs X150.5 or X250.5 would probably work, and should be in your price range used if not demo (there should be someone trading up to the .8 series).

andromedaaudio · Mar 2, 2014

I either buy secondhand on reviews only or listen to it in a shop to buy new , my " affordable" choice for powerhungryspeakers would be ML 432 , I still love it, regarding high power /high quality/reliable tubes in an affordable way I don't know

JackD201 · Mar 2, 2014

I'd say Aesthetix Atlas 2nd hand

LL21 · Mar 3, 2014

Looking at what Gary has used in the past, and also what you are using (and presumably like in terms of 'voice). Personally, i always look for 2nd hand:

- Gryphon 2nd hand (Antileon or DM100)
- CJ 350SA
- Older Mac?...can you monoblock the MC122?...not familiar with the various McIntosh models
- older Rowland?
- Monoblock 2 Forte 4s (but that's really old)
- McCormack 750 or 500...maybe speak with Steve M to upgrade/custom mod an older unit
- Smaller Krell FPB

Atmasphere · Mar 4, 2014

If we are talking matching amps to speakers you should read this:

http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php

garylkoh · Mar 4, 2014

The strange thing with my speakers that have a powered woofer section is that they have an impedance that is nearly an open circuit in the bass - 75k Ohm. Unfortunately, this means that some amplifiers that are not stable into an open circuit would have a problem at low frequencies. There is no reliable way I know that would catch this before you buy - so a home audition is quite critical.

The MC122 is a solid-state amp, and I don't recall that it's one of the ones with an output autoformer. If so, I'm surprised that you've driven it into clipping, in particular since you're not driving the woofers. However, it may have gone into oscillation with the high impedance in the bass. Try turning the bass amplifier off and see if you hear the clipping distortion. If you don't then it is most likely oscillating.

mep · Mar 4, 2014

garylkoh said:
The strange thing with my speakers that have a powered woofer section is that they have an impedance that is nearly an open circuit in the bass - 75k Ohm. Unfortunately, this means that some amplifiers that are not stable into an open circuit would have a problem at low frequencies. There is no reliable way I know that would catch this before you buy - so a home audition is quite critical.

The MC122 is a solid-state amp, and I don't recall that it's one of the ones with an output autoformer. If so, I'm surprised that you've driven it into clipping, in particular since you're not driving the woofers. However, it may have gone into oscillation with the high impedance in the bass. Try turning the bass amplifier off and see if you hear the clipping distortion. If you don't then it is most likely oscillating.

Gary-I believe my speakers have the same issue with driving certain amps into oscillation. Maybe it's true of many/most/some/all speakers that have built-in powered subs that derive their input signal for the built-in amp from the amp driving the speakers?

thedudeabides · Mar 4, 2014

Well,

Here's a recent experience that is sort of related to this topic.

I've had Martin Logans for some 26 years and now the MBL 116's for 3 years plus.

I auditioned a "pure" box / cone that being the YG Acoustics Kipod II signature with powered woofer.

The ML's and the MBL's have a very distinct way of energizing the room given their bi-directional or omni characteristics.

Upon installing the YG's, I knew I was in trouble. Yes, they sounded good but I had to raise the volume on my CJ ET5 by 5 to 8 db to get the same level of volume that I got with the ML's and now the MBL's. Even with the raised volume, I found it very difficult to connect with the music. The YG's imaged more precisely but sounded, to me, like the music lost it's dimensional magic.

Suffice to say, I returned the YG's today after having them for only 5 days. An expensive mistake.

This may be a factor for those in search of a "compatible" amp within the context of what "type" speakers they are using and the "presentation / radiation characteristics" thereof.

GG

mep · Mar 4, 2014

Dude-Why was it an expensive mistake? Did you buy them new and return them with a beating or did you take a demo pair home and returned them?

Johnny Vinyl · Mar 5, 2014

Sorry guys, but what's the difference between going into clipping mode and oscillation? Maybe it was oscillation as I never heard any distortion? I just saw the light on my amp going red.

prerich · Mar 5, 2014

Johnny Vinyl said:
Hi,

I hear a lot of talk about synergy between components and also proper marriages of speakers with certain amplifiers (perhaps all amplifiers). Reading that Speaker Brand A doesn't pair well with Amplifier Brand B, but works wonderful with Amplifier Brand C got me to thinking what amplifier I should consider down the road. I'm not really in the market at this time for one, but I'd like to know what brands perhaps I should look at when the time comes.

One thing I know is that I need more power for my Genesis G7.1f's as my small McIntosh MC122 (80wpc) can only do so much. I've already sent it into clipping mode several times in the past when I played my music a little louder. That doesn't happen often, but I'd like it to not happen at all.

Luckily I have access to a host of high-end audio shops here in Toronto, so I can audition quite a few brands, but obviously not everything. So without having the ability to test-drive some of these brands of amplifiers, how does one arrive at a decision for a proper pairing? Do you discount the ones you can't audition?

Whatever thoughts you have on the subject are welcomed. I really only want to learn from this thread. If you have a recommendation for me, great!

You have something better than high-end shops, Johnny - you have communication and fellowship with the designer of your speakers!!!! Yep, who knows better than the one that built them? I love the way you and Gary communicate! I think that's cool! I would ask him to chime in for suggestions.

prerich · Mar 5, 2014

Ooops! Hadn't read the rest of the thread - Gary did chime in

. I'm sure that Gary will help you out with the oscillating issue.

garylkoh · Mar 5, 2014

mep said:
Gary-I believe my speakers have the same issue with driving certain amps into oscillation. Maybe it's true of many/most/some/all speakers that have built-in powered subs that derive their input signal for the built-in amp from the amp driving the speakers?

I think that is why your DefTechs and my speakers get sometimes blamed for boomy and flabby bass. The other side of the problem is that electrostatics like ML's and SoundLabs get blamed for being "plasticky" because they are almost a dead short at high frequencies.

garylkoh · Mar 5, 2014

prerich said:
Ooops! Hadn't read the rest of the thread - Gary did chime in . I'm sure that Gary will help you out with the oscillating issue.

I'm here

- just MIA whenever my distributors drive me too hard when I'm on the road with them.

puroagave · Mar 5, 2014

garylkoh said:
I think that is why your DefTechs and my speakers get sometimes blamed for boomy and flabby bass. The other side of the problem is that electrostatics like ML's and SoundLabs get blamed for being "plasticky" because they are almost a dead short at high frequencies.

imo, the plastickyness is there with 'stats to some degree regardless of the power you feed them. I have SS on my CLS's because I cant find a tube amp that doesn't roll off the highs - and I've been known to like dark speakers.

Pairing speakers with the right amplifier.

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