Quality Re-Masters

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,236
81
1,725
New York City
The classical labels differed vastly in recording quality. Many people know about the superb early RCAs and Mercurys. But there is much that was not as well recorded, for example, almost all classical music on Columbia, RCA post-1964, multi-miked DG, etc.

What I always found curious was that the Columbia jazz was well recorded but not the classical. Obviously a different set of engineers. Tragedy is that there are many GREAT performances by Bernstein on Columbia in miserable sound.

Don't forget about Nonesuch classical either. Modern American music but extremely well recorded Aubort and Nikrenz by and mastered by Bob Ludwig.

The of course, there was Decca and EMI on the other side of the Atlantic whose classical recordings were every bit as good as RCA and Mercury. Then there were the other Decca labels such as Argo and L'Oiseau-Lyre. Some esp. nice stuff by the Melos ensemble on L'Oiseau-Lyre. Sad thing is that the US Angel and London releases didn't come close to the UK releases.
 

Old Listener

New Member
Jul 18, 2010
371
0
0
SF Bay area
naturelover.smugmug.com
The classical labels differed vastly in recording quality. Many people know about the superb early RCAs and Mercurys. But there is much that was not as well recorded, for example, almost all classical music on Columbia, RCA post-1964, multi-miked DG, etc.

There is some evidence that the actual Columbia recordings were not all that bad but that subsequent processing was not good enough.

The recent Original Jacket Mozart and Beethoven sets with Szell and the Cleveland Orchestra have better sound than older CDs or the original LPs. A recent remastering of Haydn symphonies 93-98 on CDs is also quite an improvement. The Fleisher / Szell Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 remastered for the Masterworks set is a wonderful performance with sound that doesn't get in the way of enjoyment.

The Bruno Walter / Columbia Symphony performance of the Beethoven Pastoral Symphony has always sounded good from the stereo LP to the current CDs.

I agree about DGs; there were many, many great performances that were diminished by lousy recordings. Fortunately, an independent team produced good sound for the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra recordings on DG. The Mozart and Beethoven symphony recordings with John Eliot Gardiner fared pretty well on DG Archiv. Gardiner's Haydn Creation and Seasons recordings on DG Archiv have quite good sound. The Bilson/Gardiner Mozart piano concerto set has great performances and the DG Archiv sound doesn't impede enjoying them.

A lot of classical labels have produced CDs with quite satisfactory sound. A few were hobbled by their doctrine about recording. Nimbus was stuck on distant, indistinct recordings with way too much reverberation. Chandos produced some orchestral recordings with cold, hard, overly reverberant sound.

I don't find the early RCAs and Mercurys to be uniformly superior in sound to what has been produced since then. Some RCAs like the Reiner Scheherazade have spectacular sound that enhances a fine performance. In others, you can hear the limitations of the technology they had available (microphones, electronics and tape recorders.)

Bill
 
Last edited:

rblnr

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 3, 2010
2,151
291
1,170
NYC/NJ
recent hit: MoFi vinyl remaster of Elvis Costello's 'Armed Forces' -- notably better than the original, really good given the vintage of the source material

and the one I know you've all been waiting for..

Audio Fidelity 24K Steve Hoffman remaster CD of Billy Idol's 'Rebel Yell' -- a dud! No better than the BI Greatest Hit remaster of some years ago. Really disappointing. To me anyway.
 

rblnr

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 3, 2010
2,151
291
1,170
NYC/NJ

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
51
38
Calgary, AB
Steely Dan - Aja - Cisco Music. Nicely packaged, although I'm not fond of their paper/plastic inner sleeve. Mastered by Kevin Gray and Robert Pincus at AcousTech Mastering.

001..jpg
 

jazdoc

Member Sponsor
Aug 7, 2010
3,320
730
1,200
Bellevue
IMO, the MusicMatters jazz reissues set the gold standard for reissues. Incredible music, great sonics and superb packing. The MusicMatters crew is also absolutely first rate handling the two minor Q/C issues that I have had during the subscrition which is now over 50 releases.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
Not to be disagreeable, but I'm not a huge Steve Hoffman fan. He does a lot of things right -- goes to great lengths to get the original tapes so not re-master from a copy, does not compress, avoids noise reduction, etc. He is clearly a dedicated craftsman. But his eq is, in my limited experience with his work, digital for people who don't like digital. He tries to make CDs sound like vinyl. To me that just sounds a bit rolled off up high and chunky in the middle. But one man's muddy is another man's warmth. They might be just the thing for you.

Didn't know an opinion could be quite so definitively wrong, Miles, but OK. The one that comes to mind is Late For The Sky, which I own. I've heard a few others that gave me the same general impression, but that's the one I've listened to repeatedly, and that's my evaluation. Rim shots have no snap. there's little shimmer in cymbals. Vocals are a bit recessed. Bass guitars seem a bit too prominent. Kick drums put out a dull thump without any of the snap of the mallet hitting the head. The whole thing is a bit dark. Maybe that's the way the tape is, but I don't remember the vinyl that way. I said my experience with his work was limited and stated my opinion pretty gently, Miles. I don't think there was really any call for the attack.

The two statements you made that I bolded and italicized seem to be diametrically opposed. Your first post said that Hoffman tries to make CDs sound like vinyl. You then went on to list an example of Hoffman’s work (For the Sky) in which you outlined what you didn’t like, but said you don’t recall the LP sounding the way Hoffman’s reissue on CD sounded. Well now…how can Hoffman master CDs to sound like vinyl in your opinion and then you say that your memory of the vinyl recording is different than what you heard from Hoffman’s CD remaster? You can’t have it both ways Tim.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
i have been fortunate with the following remasters...some of which were done by the legenery Bob Ludwig:

- Nearly all of Sting/Police remasters
- Nearly all of the U2 remasters
- Rudy van Gelder remasters...many have commented they are bright. i have not found that on the ones i have bought
- The Ella Fitzgerald remasters have been INCREDIBLY good
- Many of the Dexter Gordon remasters, Stanley Turrentine, Red Garland Trio/Quintet, Thelonius Monk remasters...all much improved over the original CDs
 

c1ferrari

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 15, 2010
2,162
51
1,770
Just came across this!

Oh, man, don't dis the Isleys. Some of the best baby making music ever sung! Play something like For The Love Of You and follow that up with Teddy Pendergrass singing Close The Door and, well you know where your evening is headed ...

+ infinity :rolleyes::p:D
 

Johnny Vinyl

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 16, 2010
8,570
51
38
Calgary, AB
AJA comparision

I'm not very good at describing sound characteristics, but I did a quick comparison of BLACK COW (original pressing vs the new Cisco I just picked up). All I can say is HOLY COW! Most of my vinyl is in Mint/Near Mint condition, and I would rate my orginal AJA in that category as well, but man......what a difference. Everything just opened up and the first word that came to my mind was "holographic". The sound just seemed to envelop me from all sides. Imaging was pinpoint accurate and the separation between voice and various instruments was spot-on. While this cut didn't introduce never before heard sounds, all of the sounds were much better defined with a great degree of accuracy and clarity.

Off to listen to the rest of the album! :)
 

c1ferrari

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
May 15, 2010
2,162
51
1,770
I'm not very good at describing sound characteristics, but I did a quick comparison of BLACK COW (original pressing vs the new Cisco I just picked up). All I can say is HOLY COW! Most of my vinyl is in Mint/Near Mint condition, and I would rate my orginal AJA in that category as well, but man......what a difference.

John,

I expect your original vinyl pressing was analog tracking, analog mixing, and analog mastering, i.e. AAA :D

Your comment regarding Cisco speaks volumes -lol- about the quality of the vinyl, I presume, re-master --even if digital was integral to the chain, somewhere ;)
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
I've ragged on this one before, but the Rolling Stones hi-rez version of Big Hits stinks to high heaven. After I complained, HD Tracks let me pick anything else I wanted which was cool. The other day I found my copy of Big Hits on LP which also happens to be a remastered version as well (and I think it's digital to boot). The LP is way better sounding and it must have been cut from a different master because it has bottom end which the hi-rez doesn't have. The LP is better sounding from top to bottom over the hi-rez version. It sounds like the hi-rez version was cut from a 4th generation tape.

I don't share Tim's high opinion of the Beatle remasters and I have them all. Are they better than the original CD versions? Yes, but that didn't take much. Are they more quiet than Beatle LPs? Sure, but all digitial does deathly silence. Do they sound better than the EMI Parlaphone LPs? I don't think so. The fact that I have all of the remasters loaded onto my music server (including the 24 bit USB apple) and don't want to listen to them tells the story. For me, something is not quite right, but I haven't put my finger on it yet.
 

LL21

Well-Known Member
Dec 26, 2010
14,411
2,509
1,448
FWIW, i agree with you MEP. i just listend to my Hard Day's Night and Sgt Peppers CD remasters...ain't great is my conclusion...for the 5th time after buying these. Compare them to the latest Grateful Dead Remasters...while "lifeless" is too harsh...i think that is probably the only way i can describe the music in comparison to the work Bob Ludwig did on Sting and the Police's albums, Eagles did on their stuff, or Grateful Dead's latest remasters. A slightly metallic, 2-D,robotic quality to the music which does not exist on the LP (of Hard Day's...not heard Sgt P). i am very confident someone will give me grief about this...listen, its one person's opinion. Ultimately, i also do not listen to to these albums that often...even though i love the music, and i think this is why.
 
Last edited:

Phelonious Ponk

New Member
Jun 30, 2010
8,677
23
0
The two statements you made that I bolded and italicized seem to be diametrically opposed. Your first post said that Hoffman tries to make CDs sound like vinyl. You then went on to list an example of Hoffman’s work (For the Sky) in which you outlined what you didn’t like, but said you don’t recall the LP sounding the way Hoffman’s reissue on CD sounded. Well now…how can Hoffman master CDs to sound like vinyl in your opinion and then you say that your memory of the vinyl recording is different than what you heard from Hoffman’s CD remaster? You can’t have it both ways Tim.

You're digging up old ones today, Mark. Perhaps I should have said he tries to make digital sound analog? I've spent some time on Hoffman's forum and that does seem to be his operating principle. He's an analog guy and he likes to push digital in that direction, or so I've seen him say anyway. I think he pushed Late For The Sky way too far; it's just dull. And no, I don't remember the vinyl sounding that way. Having it both ways? Maybe. Listen to it for yourself and compare it to the vinyl if you have it. Let me know your thoughts.

Tim
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
You're digging up old ones today, Mark. Perhaps I should have said he tries to make digital sound analog? I've spent some time on Hoffman's forum and that does seem to be his operating principle. He's an analog guy and he likes to push digital in that direction, or so I've seen him say anyway. I think he pushed Late For The Sky way too far; it's just dull. And no, I don't remember the vinyl sounding that way. Having it both ways? Maybe. Listen to it for yourself and compare it to the vinyl if you have it. Let me know your thoughts.

Tim

Tim-I don't know what you mean about "digging up old ones." I cut and pasted both of your comments from the same thread and I thought they were both recent comments by you. I don't know anything about "Late for the Sky" and don't have it on any format so I can't make comparisons.
 

mep

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
9,481
17
0
FWIW, i agree with you MEP. i just listend to my Hard Day's Night and Sgt Peppers CD remasters...ain't great is my conclusion...for the 5th time after buying these. Compare them to the latest Grateful Dead Remasters...while "lifeless" is too harsh...i think that is probably the only way i can describe the music in comparison to the work Bob Ludwig did on Sting and the Police's albums, Eagles did on their stuff, or Grateful Dead's latest remasters. A slightly metallic, 2-D,robotic quality to the music which does not exist on the LP (of Hard Day's...not heard Sgt P). i am very confident someone will give me grief about this...listen, its one person's opinion. Ultimately, i also do not listen to to these albums that often...even though i love the music, and i think this is why.

People here will give you grief about anything and everything. I already have taken some before when I said I wasn't wild over the Beatle remasters. Next thing was someone wanted to argue that the MFSL box set sounded better than the BC-13 box set. It didn't over 25 years ago. I also had single MFSL Beatle LPs and didn't care for any of them. They all went by-by to those who think all things ever done by MFSL rules.
 

About us

  • What’s Best Forum is THE forum for high end audio, product reviews, advice and sharing experiences on the best of everything else. This is THE place where audiophiles and audio companies discuss vintage, contemporary and new audio products, music servers, music streamers, computer audio, digital-to-analog converters, turntables, phono stages, cartridges, reel-to-reel tape machines, speakers, headphones and tube and solid-state amplification. Founded in 2010 What’s Best Forum invites intelligent and courteous people of all interests and backgrounds to describe and discuss the best of everything. From beginners to life-long hobbyists to industry professionals, we enjoy learning about new things and meeting new people, and participating in spirited debates.

Quick Navigation

User Menu

Steve Williams
Site Founder | Site Owner | Administrator
Ron Resnick
Site Co-Owner | Administrator
Julian (The Fixer)
Website Build | Marketing Managersing