Butterworth article on loudness wars

Shaffer

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Randy Bessinger

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Is there a picture and/or a description of his record collection? I have great respect for academia, which brings about the question as to what magnetic resonance research has directly in common with knowing and experiencing good sound?

FWIW, I'm the only one in my entire extended family who is not a post-doc. Resumes are nice.
Don't know but they don't even look 50:)
 

Shaffer

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Don't know but they don't even look 50:)

Age is a state of mind, not juts a physical number. Is this now a contest of let's state the obvious? Or. perhaps, you want to discuss that he's some 20 years older than his subjects - not juts a numerical generation, but one that certainly eclipses that idea in terms of technology and physical exposure? That's an exiting topic, too. Because, in this state of reality, compressed recordings are just as good. Yea, that's happen.
 

Randy Bessinger

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Age is a state of mind, not juts a physical number. Is this now a contest of let's state the obvious? Or. perhaps, you want to discuss that he's some 20 years older than his subjects - not juts a numerical generation, but one that certainly eclipses that idea in terms of technology and physical exposure? That's an exiting topic, too.
Lighten up Francis. I was just poking some fun but it appears this subject is too serious for that. I am out of here.
 

Shaffer

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Lighten up Francis. I was just poking some fun but it appears this subject is too serious for that. I am out of here.

You're right; being forced to dwell on the given in a poke in a fun direction.
 

rbbert

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I've been on our local music scene since I was 15. I'm 50 now. If you think droves of folks in their mid-20 attend live shows, at least the kind where they actually hear the band, you may be grossly mistaken...
Maybe I needed to emphasize music students. Maybe it's different now, but when I went to college if you were a music student you were expected to play at least two instruments and play in a band and/or orchestra.
 

Shaffer

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Maybe I needed to emphasize music students. Maybe it's different now, but when I went to college if you were a music student you were expected to play at least two instruments and play in a band and/or orchestra.

Heh...I attended a university (undergrad) that's home to the Eastman School of Music. I had some involvement with it in a more technical capacity. If you think that music students understand, or even care about good sound in anything other than a plebeian norm, I'm really not sure what to say. Hell, just the other night a music student was tuning his guitar on stage right before performing. I was the one who told him when it was finally in tune. Of course he checked it with an electronic device he had with him and guess what? The instrument was finally in tune. Music students. Pfffftttt.

This may be an unpopular view, but I'll say it anyway. IME, we have a kid who's forced to learn how to play an instrument by his parents. He gets to college, doesn't know what he wants to do, can't even pull a low-C in intro to calculus, but he can still play that instrument that he had no interest in to begin with. So, being too dim to organize his intellect, he becomes a music major! Ever talked to music students about music? How about high school music teachers? Good times. That's just the music. Now, talk to them about sound quality....

Edit: my uncle (R.I.P.) and my original musical/audio mentor had his post-doc in mechanical engineering. He also had an EE degree and more patents that fit on his wall. Literally. He had a big system for its time that he compiled using his academic beliefs, without realizing that he really didn't know anything about sound. It was one of the worst systems I ever heard. Better, one summer day his amplifier is shutting down. He can't figure out why. Seemed kinda obvious: the crappy amp is fully enclosed in a cabinet and forced to drive ~50' of 18awg zipcord (per channel). No, couldn't be. Post-doc engineer. Wanna hear more about my family? ;)

Another example of academic expertise: my mother is a MD. I've been suffering from some kind of semi-debilitating illness for years, not really knowing what it is. She referred me to countless physicians, all, supposedly, experts. 7+ years I spent going from one doctor to another, trying different drugs - many of which made me far worse - until one day I came across a real physician. No exaggeration, he had me diagnosed in less than 5 minutes and my health is markedly improved. I'm forever grateful to this man. And the others? Eggsperts.

BTW, my 12 year old son can readily tell the difference between overly compressed recordings and their better counterparts. He's 12, he plays video games and has little exposure to live music, but he does know what to listen for.
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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Heh...I attended a university (undergrad) that's home to the Eastman School of Music. I had some involvement with it in a more technical capacity. If you think that music students understand, or even care about good sound in anything other than a plebeian norm, I'm really not sure what to say. Hell, just the other night a music student was tuning his guitar on stage right before performing. I was the one who told him when it was finally in tune. Of course he checked it with an electronic device he had with him and guess what? The instrument was finally in tune. Music students. Pfffftttt.

This may be an unpopular view, but I'll say it anyway. IME, we have a kid who's forced to learn how to play an instrument by his parents. He gets to college, doesn't know what he wants to do, can't even pull a low-C in intro to calculus, but he can still play that instrument that he had no interest in to begin with. So, being too dim to organize his intellect, he becomes a music major! Ever talked to music students about music? How about high school music teachers? Good times. That's just the music. Now, talk to them about sound quality....

Edit: my uncle (R.I.P.) and my original musical/audio mentor had his post-doc in mechanical engineering. He also had an EE degree and more patents that fit on his wall. Literally. He had a big system for its time that he compiled using his academic beliefs, without realizing that he really didn't know anything about sound. It was one of the worst systems I ever heard. Better, one summer day his amplifier is shutting down. He can't figure out why. Seemed kinda obvious: the crappy amp is fully enclosed in a cabinet and forced to drive ~50' of 18awg zipcord (per channel). No, couldn't be. Post-doc engineer. Wanna hear more about my family? ;)

Another example of academic expertise: my mother is a MD. I've been suffering from some kind of semi-debilitating illness for years, not really knowing what it is. She referred me to countless physicians, all, supposedly, experts. 7+ years I spent going from one doctor to another, trying different drugs - many of which made me far worse - until one day I came across a real physician. No exaggeration, he had me diagnosed in less than 5 minutes and my health is markedly improved. I'm forever grateful to this man. And the others? Eggsperts.

BTW, my 12 year old son can readily tell the difference between overly compressed recordings and their better counterparts. He's 12, he plays video games and has little exposure to live music, but he does know what to listen for.

You seem to have a pretty long list of stuff that disappoints you. What do you like? What do you put your faith in? Where do you find your joy?

Tim
 

amirm

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I have the paper and have read it. On the question of which tracks were used, this is the list followed by three numbers. The first two are the so called "DR meter" readings and the third, the difference between them. The first number is the original, the second remastered with compression:

1 Aha Hunting High and Low 9.82 7.23 2.58
2 The Cure Homesick 9.26 5.01 4.25
3 Dire Straits Money for Nothing 9.00 5.43 3.57
4 George Michael Faith 14.15 7.49 6.66
5 Chris Isaak Wicked Game 11.86 5.86 6.00
6 Michael Jackson Billie Jean 11.77 4.67 7.10
7 Japan Talking Drum 10.17 7.44 2.73
8 Madonna Pappa Don’t Preach 10.39 4.50 5.89
9 Megadeth Youthanasia 7.13 3.54 3.58
10 Metallica Broken, Beat, Scarred 11.52 2.82 8.70
11 Morrissey Everyday is like Sunday 9.91 3.04 6.87
12 Nirvana Smells like Teen Spirit 8.64 4.56 4.08
13 Pearl Jam Alive 7.40 4.99 2.41
14 Talking Heads Burning Down the House 11.59 8.32 3.27
15 U2 I Still Havent Found 9.80 7.48 2.32

#10 track was the only one that statistically showed a preference for the original.

The article is a bit misleading in that audiophiles were not tested for the report. So this is a sampling of the general public (younger ones).
 

amirm

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I'm amazed by anyone that can determine how something sounds just by the DR rating or FFT.
Well said. These are technical measures and people without knowing what they are and how they are measured, trust the numbers and draw conclusions.

Here is a hard to read article that deals with this issue in the context of dynamic range: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep11/articles/loudness.htm

Dynamic Range' & The Loudness War
We all know music is getting louder. But is it less dynamic? Our ground-breaking research proves beyond any doubt that the answer is no — and that popular beliefs about the 'loudness war' need a radical rethink.
 

rbbert

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The strange thing about this article, amir, is that the conclusions don't really match the data presented. In fact they give numerous examples where the dynamic range is significantly compromised.
 

Orb

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Amir,
do they explain how they did the following: "Levels were adjusted so that the clips had equal average loudness".

Cheers
Orb
 

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