Dynamics!!!

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Let's talk about Dynamics. Today I was listening to a live marching band and I was within about five (5) feet of this band. So for those of you who have had this experience, I'm sure that the one thing that struck you was how IMMENSELY dynamic the portrayal of the percussion instruments is. ( although all of the other instruments were off the charts in this area as well, just not quite as much as the percussion).
Listening to this particular aspect made we realize again that one of the main things that seems to separate a great audio system from one that is simply good, is the ability of the system to portray large dynamic swings. I think that horns are very good at this part of the presentation..at least the one's that I have heard; however, I wonder how many of us ( manufacturer's/ designer's and listener's)place enough importance on this part of music production with our choice of speaker and accompanying gear.
Clearly, IMHO, the ability to push BIG air has to do with this aspect; but also the ability of the system to respond very rapidly. Perhaps most importantly,we also have to add the recording has to have captured the dynamics in the first place, but assuming that is the case---
How pleased are you with the dynamic ability of your system? Could it be a LOT better?
 

JackD201

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The town next to our hometown has a champion marching band. I got to see them all the time. Since I was a Congressman, I was always front and center with the Governor, Mayor and the School Principal at the events they would play in. Venues were either school grounds or community spaces. In the latter we'd have band members practically brushing against our pant legs.

I don't know if I even WANT that level of dynamics at all. It is definitely thrilling but my ears would get a lot of abuse, sometimes to the point of ringing.
 

mep

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The dynamics could always be a "LOT better." Having the ability to playback material that is encoded with a high dynamic range with a high dynamic range is what separates the men from the boys. And yes, it's easier to pull it off with speakers that are 100dB+ efficient.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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The town next to our hometown has a champion marching band. I got to see them all the time. Since I was a Congressman, I was always front and center with the Governor, Mayor and the School Principal at the events they would play in. Venues were either school grounds or community spaces. In the latter we'd have band members practically brushing against our pant legs.

I don't know if I even WANT that level of dynamics at all. It is definitely thrilling but my ears would get a lot of abuse, sometimes to the point of ringing.

Jack, I do agree. However, what the live band experience amply demonstrates- is the true sound of these instruments. I'm not really talking about the volume of the band...which you CLEARLY would NOT want in your home, BUT the dynamic portrayal of the 'live' instrument; which is extremely impressive IMO. :)
 

mep

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The town next to our hometown has a champion marching band. I got to see them all the time. Since I was a Congressman, I was always front and center with the Governor, Mayor and the School Principal at the events they would play in. Venues were either school grounds or community spaces. In the latter we'd have band members practically brushing against our pant legs.

I don't know if I even WANT that level of dynamics at all. It is definitely thrilling but my ears would get a lot of abuse, sometimes to the point of ringing.

Awhile back I talked about hearing a mariachi band at a Mexican restaurant in Old Town San Diego. This band had a trumpet player and they were playing about 10' from my table and the loudness, intensity, and dynamic range coming from that trumpet alone was knocking the dust off the ceiling. It was simply incredible to hear that much power and know it was coming from a single wind instrument. It would take a ton of power to pull that off from a recording assuming the recording could capture all of that intensity/dynamic range which the state of the art simply won't allow. So yeah Jack, listening to that level of sound on a regular basis would damage your hearing.
 

JackD201

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You know what they say, if you can't go up, you've gotta go down on the other end to preserve the range. Unfortunately that has it's own attendant limits.

All in all I'm pretty satisfied with what I have. The room is quiet but not uncomfortably so, I can bang in the 100s easily when I'm feeling stupid too. I do want some more ease/less distortion since my room is quite large. Next stop, bigger speakers, not to play louder but for a better spread with less dynamic compression. I think that will get me to my self designated finish line.
 

RBFC

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I've been looking at new TV displays, and this topic is analogous to the situation with video. For instance, you can't look at the sun in real life, yet you can look at it on the TV screen. The limitations of "dynamic range" are quite obvious, but are they truly a big problem? Just as we wouldn't want to look at the sun, etc. on video, would we want to routinely hear sounds as dynamic as those common in real life? Yes, we absolutely WANT that capability, but we would then all have some sort of "night mode" compression scheme necessary in our playback chain for those times we didn't desire that range.

Lee
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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I've been looking at new TV displays, and this topic is analogous to the situation with video. For instance, you can't look at the sun in real life, yet you can look at it on the TV screen. The limitations of "dynamic range" are quite obvious, but are they truly a big problem? Just as we wouldn't want to look at the sun, etc. on video, would we want to routinely hear sounds as dynamic as those common in real life? Yes, we absolutely WANT that capability, but we would then all have some sort of "night mode" compression scheme necessary in our playback chain for those times we didn't desire that range.

Lee

Lee, you present an interesting analogy. However, I am of the opinion that we can and do need to try and increase greatly the ability of our system's when it comes to the dynamic portrayal of percussion. This area was the one area that struck me so forcefully when listening today 'live'. The percussive hits of the stick on the drum head and on the side of the drum was so much more realistic than any system that I have ever heard...and by a country mile; due, in big part I believe to the amazing dynamic impact.
 

LL21

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Dec 26, 2010
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You know what they say, if you can't go up, you've gotta go down on the other end to preserve the range. Unfortunately that has it's own attendant limits.

All in all I'm pretty satisfied with what I have. The room is quiet but not uncomfortably so, I can bang in the 100s easily when I'm feeling stupid too. I do want some more ease/less distortion since my room is quite large. Next stop, bigger speakers, not to play louder but for a better spread with less dynamic compression. I think that will get me to my self designated finish line.

I am with you...and with Davey at the same time...having heard Genesis 1.1s and Arrakis 2...I have experienced scale that was both effortless and powerful (and while loud was not disturbingly so)...but it took Rachel Podger Channel Classics Vivaldi and placed 20 players in a large living room, whereas every other system (XLFs, X1s, Grand Utopias, Tidals, etc) places realistically about 7-8 musicians lifescale in the room.

That is a lot of fun...and rather than the nth degree of pindrop detail...I think this element of scale (if achievable by getting the right room) is the last stop for me. I have never been a detail freak, but I have always enjoyed bass, and as the noise floor has dropped I have enjoyed learning that life-sized presentation becomes closer because there is less distortion at higher (and fortunately also lower) levels.
 
Dynamics is the one thing that 99% of consumer electronics cannot duplicate. It is not measured well either by the reviewers.

IT is possible to get bone-crushing dynamics, but not without doing extensive modifications to most components, including preamps and amps, not to mention DACs. I was a modder from 1999 to 2009 and much of my time was spent addressing the dynamics problem.

Dynamics starts at the source however. IF your digital source does not have low-jitter, you can forget about bone-crushing dynamics.

A minimalist approach is best IME, eliminating the active preamp and replacing with another technology or a transformer passive.

Speakers are also to blame. Poor crossover design is common and cheap resistors, inductors and capacitors are typical, even in $100K speakers. Elimination of the crossover in favor of a DSP crossover is best, but short of that, one can replace the substandard components in the speaker, such as inductors from jensencapacitors.com, capacitors from Dueland or VHaudio and planar thick-film resistors from Vishay etc..

Another common miss-step in speakers is fine-tuning of the port on a ported enclosure. Often all it takes is to move the tuned port in or out 1/2" and it turns into a firecracker of a speaker. Most speaker designers do the calculation and put the port in and do no more. Final tweaking of this is critical. The prototype speaker must also match exactly the production version.

Steve N.
 

LL21

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Interesting Steve N.

When you say move the bass port...do you mean recut the bass port hole so that it is located as little as half an inch from its original location...or moving the tube back and forth by half an inch within its existing hole?

Curious if you could describe more fully. On my X1s, I find placing a rubber covered 3lb dumbbell weight inside each tube port helps. I tried 10lbs and it felt like the bass was being truncated. No weight and I could hear reverb. 3lbs seemed the right balance.
 

mep

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Before we rush down the path of spending $$$ on systems, are we really sure that dynamics are adequately captured on our recordings in the first place?

Not if they are digital recordings. Can you say 0VU? :)
 
Interesting Steve N.

When you say move the bass port...do you mean recut the bass port hole so that it is located as little as half an inch from its original location...or moving the tube back and forth by half an inch within its existing hole?

I mean slide it in and out of the existing hole like a trombone.

Steve N.
 
Before we rush down the path of spending $$$ on systems, are we really sure that dynamics are adequately captured on our recordings in the first place?
Runs the gamut, just like recording quality. I have 44.1 CD rips that have incredible dynamics. Kick drum that makes my stomach pump in and out. Its up to the recording engineer and the equipment.
Steve N.
 

LL21

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I mean slide it in and out of the existing hole like a trombone.

Steve N.

Thanks...I checked and the tube is a machined piece of metal which is screwed into place.
 

DaveyF

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Jul 31, 2010
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Before we rush down the path of spending $$$ on systems, are we really sure that dynamics are adequately captured on our recordings in the first place?

That's a VERY good question. If dynamics are NOT adequately captured by the recording, and it is certainly highly possible that they are not, then it calls into question how far we can get as a'philes
in trying to reproduce the sound of the real thing in our homes.:confused:
IMO, one of the easiest and truest tests of a high end system is how well it can reproduce dynamics...and as I said in my earlier post, compared to a 'live' band, the reproduction ( at least of the systems
I have heard) fails miserably.
I suspect that if we can get nothing else truly right BUT we can get this aspect correct ( from the recording to the playback) then we would be going a long way towards increasing the ''illusion" of
real instruments playing in our homes. IMHO.:D
 

RBFC

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Davey,

Great post. Remember the days of phono styli jumping out of the groove on Telarc's "1812"? Listening to the CD from those digital tapes still left a lot to be desired. "Gain-riding" and compression have been common engineering practices, so it can be tough to know whether it's the technology or the recording technique at fault.

Lee
 

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