Dynamics!!!

Atmasphere

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Before we rush down the path of spending $$$ on systems, are we really sure that dynamics are adequately captured on our recordings in the first place?

That is up to the recording engineer. When we recorded Canto General, we did it without gain riding or compression both on the tape and the LP. So it was entirely uncompressed.

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Regarding 'Dynamics', its a word I am careful to avoid most of the time as it usually refers to distortion. IOW, you can safely exchange the word 'distortion' for the word 'dynamics' in about 90% of audiophile conversations without changing the meaning of the conversation.

Here's why: The human ear/brain system uses higher ordered harmonic (and also inharmonic) information as 'loudness cues' (not the be confused with Fletcher Munson). When such distortions exist in playback, they masquerade as 'dynamics'. I can point to a well-known example: In reviews of almost any SET, you will see a comment quite often, which goes something like this: "...despite its low power, this amplifier was surprisingly dynamic". The reason this happens has to do with the fact that the power is needed mostly on transients. At low power levels SETs have surprisingly low distortion, often unmeasurable, but as power is increased, distortion increases with it. Initially its mostly the lower orders (2nd, with small amounts of 3rd and 4th) which the ear translates to 'lushness', 'warmth' or 'body'. But right around 20-25% of full power the higher orders become involved. Now if these are only on transients the amp will appear to be playing with a lot more dynamic contrast and power than its low power would seem to allow.

It isn't. Its a physiological reaction to distortion.

SETs are by no means the only culprits here. Transistor amps make trace amounts of higher ordered distortion all the time. Since our ear uses these harmonics as loudness cues, our ears are very sensitive to them, so much so that it can be said that they are more sensitive to this than almost anything else. So Transistor amps can seem to be 'dynamic' too.

Now it is possible to design amplification that does not generate these types of distortions (please note that in the prior text I did include IM, as 'inharmonic' distortion). In fact you could even use an SET, but you would have to use a loudspeaker that was efficient enough that the amp did not go over 20% of output at any time.

At any rate, if you *do* have amplification that does not generate loudness cues, the first thing you will notice is that you are playing the stereo a lot louder than you might have otherwise thought. You may notice it in this way: it does not sound loud, but you have to yell to be heard by someone sitting right next to you. Put another way- if it sounds loud, that might be a bad thing- your ears simply responding to higher ordered distortions.

There are various ways you can approach this, for example making sure that the turntable is free of room-transmitted vibration and that the cartridge is tracking perfectly. This will go a long ways towards making the system impervious at high volume levels. The other thing that really seems to help is to use speakers that are reasonably efficiency. For example my speakers are 98 db 1 watt/1 meter, but I find that 30 watts really isn't enough power if I want to play things in a lifelike manner. Introduce some distortion though and 7 watts may be too much!

I opened this by saying I'm careful about the term 'dynamics': when I am referring to actual dynamic changes I use the terms 'impact', 'authority' or perhaps 'unfettered' to convey that. I'm also usually careful to say why as well, because so many audiophiles unconsciously associate distortion with dynamics.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I've heard dynamics that come very close to the true dynamics of drums in the listening room with you, but I've only heard it come from big horns, big power, fully active -- custom mains monitors in studios, and big, clean PA. I can't imagine it coming from conventional box speakers (and certainly not from panels), and from conventional passive amplification, but I could be proven wrong on that. Then, however, I'd get to the other thing I can't imagine, which is wanting that in your home. Oh and there has always been a trade-off in my experience; scale. By the time you get the crack of a rim shot from a system that has the same startling impact of the real thing, that snare drum is the size of a Mini Cooper.

Of course a good system, even a small one in a small room, can create a fairly resonable facsimile of that rim shot from halfway back, in a club 5 times the size of your listening room, Or at least give me a decent illusion I can attach myself to and enjoy. That I'll listen to.

Tim
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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Right! Real drums are really loud. I have to use ear plugs when I practice with my band, and we have a fairly large space.

At rehearsals, our drummer plays behind a plexiglass shield. :) What kind of music do you play?

Tim
 

DaveyF

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Atmasphere, you bring up some very good points here. One in particular that I agree with you on, is the understanding of the what the word 'dynamics' means. I think your idea of using the word..'impact' or 'authority' is quite valid. However, I am of the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the ability of one's system to portray 'impact' or 'authority' will go a LONG way to creating the 'real'.
As you said, a drum set is extremely loud ..and would be more so in a small listening environment ( although I have played live in such a setting and the volume isn't overbearing). However, isn't this aspect part of the 'true' identity of this instrument?
A few years back, I was treated to a demo of the largest Edgarhorn speakers. The demo played was the Sheffield Drum D to D Lp-- and at fairly realistic volumes. The sense of a real drum kit playing in the room was excellent.....not so much with other instruments:(
BUT these horns could really produce a very lifelike 'impact' or dynamic' of the drum kit, so much so, that in this one way they were as good as I have heard. Too bad that these speakers were not realistic in so many other ways.:(
 
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Orb

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Atmas,
your post has reminded me of a study done quite a few years ago where they investigated cognition and loudness.
Basically they used the same tone and only adjusted its loudness, what they then did was to use just loudness and timing to represent music/nursery rhymes.
I really need to try and find the paper as it was interesting research, with the conclusion going beyond the traditional cues in terms of cognition and perceived loudness that you touched upon (not disagreeing btw just that this goes much deeper).

Cheers
Orb
 

Shaffer

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Outside of source material, I don't know if my system can get substantially more dynamic. There's only so loud the speakers will play, without compression, and I've run them with amps ranging from a MC225 to a pair of 800wpc Coda monoblocks. Yea, the Codas were much more dynamic, than the Mac, but not so much compared to a KSA-150. If you guys have time, look for Tomas Lund's video on Youtube discussing the linearity of DACs. It may have a greater impact on dynamics (on an audiophile scale) that pure brute force.
 

Atmasphere

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At rehearsals, our drummer plays behind a plexiglass shield. :) What kind of music do you play?

Tim

'Space' rock. Its sort of progressive, heavy, but not metal. I play keyboards (analog of course- Mellotron, Prophet 5 and EML-101). Occasionally native American flute.

Atmasphere, you bring up some very good points here. One in particular that I agree with you on, is the understanding of the what the word 'dynamics' means. I think your idea of using the word..'impact' or 'authority' is quite valid. However, I am of the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the ability of one's system to portray 'impact' or 'authority' will go a LONG way to creating the 'real'.
As you said, a drum set is extremely loud ..and would be more so in a small listening environment ( although I have played live in such a setting and the volume isn't overbearing). However, isn't this aspect part of the 'true' identity of this instrument?

Certainly!

Atmas,
your post has reminded me of a study done quite a few years ago where they investigated cognition and loudness.
Basically they used the same tone and only adjusted its loudness, what they then did was to use just loudness and timing to represent music/nursery rhymes.
I really need to try and find the paper as it was interesting research, with the conclusion going beyond the traditional cues in terms of cognition and perceived loudness that you touched upon (not disagreeing btw just that this goes much deeper).

Cheers
Orb

If you ever find that study, I would love to take a peek. Its one I've not heard of.
 

KeithR

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I was at Disney Hall this weekend to hear Dudamel conduct Tchaikofsky's 6th and have to agree. Always humbling to come home to a hifi system in general, but the sense of microdynamics (with speed and tonality) is very impressive live.

I do prefer high efficiency speakers in general to get better microdynamics at home. Big, inefficient speakers just don't do that even with sledgehammer amplification ime.
 

puroagave

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I was at Disney Hall this weekend to hear Dudamel conduct Tchaikofsky's 6th and have to agree. Always humbling to come home to a hifi system in general, but the sense of microdynamics (with speed and tonality) is very impressive live.

I do prefer high efficiency speakers in general to get better microdynamics at home. Big, inefficient speakers just don't do that even with sledgehammer amplification ime.

I've sat in the cheap seats more times than I can remember, behind the stage almost in line with the percussionist. I heard daphnis et chloe there a while back, the final movement with the wind machine, tam-tams and bass drum will make you wince, feel giddy and squirm in your seat all at once. no system i've ever experienced did that:b
 

Phelonious Ponk

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I was at Disney Hall this weekend to hear Dudamel conduct Tchaikofsky's 6th and have to agree. Always humbling to come home to a hifi system in general, but the sense of microdynamics (with speed and tonality) is very impressive live.

I do prefer high efficiency speakers in general to get better microdynamics at home. Big, inefficient speakers just don't do that even with sledgehammer amplification ime.

What kind of speakers are you using? I've found the opposite, that big, extremely efficient horns get the big dynamic swings right, but the smaller stuff -- the bounce of the attack when an entire violin section plucks a phrase in sync, the chop of a mandolin -- is actually better with conventional drivers and lots of headroom. The horns jump alright, but they lose some natural tonality in the process. For every observation there is an exception, though.

Tim
 

asiufy

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'Space' rock. Its sort of progressive, heavy, but not metal. I play keyboards (analog of course- Mellotron, Prophet 5 and EML-101). Occasionally native American flute.

Hey this sounds cool, right up my alley! :) Got any recordings?


alexandre
 

DaveyF

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What kind of speakers are you using? I've found the opposite, that big, extremely efficient horns get the big dynamic swings right, but the smaller stuff -- the bounce of the attack when an entire violin section plucks a phrase in sync, the chop of a mandolin -- is actually better with conventional drivers and lots of headroom. The horns jump alright, but they lose some natural tonality in the process. For every observation there is an exception, though.

Tim

Tim, that's pretty much my experience too. The Edgarhorn's that I mentioned earlier were great at dynamic swings ( very impressive) BUT they lost a lot ( not just some) of natural tonality. A pity, IF these speakers could portray both aspects as well as they can portray dynamic swings, then IMO they would sit at the top of the heap.
 
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Atmasphere

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What kind of speakers are you using? I've found the opposite, that big, extremely efficient horns get the big dynamic swings right, but the smaller stuff -- the bounce of the attack when an entire violin section plucks a phrase in sync, the chop of a mandolin -- is actually better with conventional drivers and lots of headroom. The horns jump alright, but they lose some natural tonality in the process. For every observation there is an exception, though.

Tim

Yes! I use the Classic Audio Loudspeakers, which use a Kapton surrounded real beryllium 4" driver that is powered by a field coil. It has all the speed of ESLs. I do find a lot of horns disappointing, but this one really brings home the detail, nicely extended but without sizzle.

Hey this sounds cool, right up my alley! :) Got any recordings?
alexandre

Yes- so far two LPs, the first is self-titled (Thunderbolt Pagoda) the other called 2nd Ascension. The other members of the band are not audiophiles, but they were also the ones that insisted on LP only. Go figure. The pressings were done direct from the master tapes at Record Technology. Right now there is one of each on discogs.com (both LPs sold out several years ago, we are nearly done with our third album now). IMO the 2nd LP is the better of the two. We really had to fight our first drummer on the mix of the first one.
 

KeithR

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What kind of speakers are you using? I've found the opposite, that big, extremely efficient horns get the big dynamic swings right, but the smaller stuff -- the bounce of the attack when an entire violin section plucks a phrase in sync, the chop of a mandolin -- is actually better with conventional drivers and lots of headroom. The horns jump alright, but they lose some natural tonality in the process. For every observation there is an exception, though.

Tim

I dont use horns. Zu Definition 4s with nano-coated paper drivers.
 

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