Avantgarde Horn Speakers

Big Dog RJ · Feb 28, 2014

Hi mate,

Very pleased to see someone called me "big dog"... since 1994! When I was a uni student back in Chicago, being part of the AMA (American Marketing Assoc.) one semester we had to sell boxes of chocolates to raise funds. I took the money off this African American dude but forgot to give him the chocs! Later that night we bumped into each other at the gym (called the cage); and was starting to cause a ruckus saying that I had taken his money to all his bros in the hood... and they wanted to teach me a lesson. I then remembered that I had forgotten about his chocs, and dashed off to my dorm room as fast as an impala. I returned right back with the chocs including an extra one for free as an apology. He had his girlfriend next to him at the time and she said "awe ain't that sweet big bro brought ya chocolates, plus one for free, dam!" I apologized to him saying that I had completely forgotten. He looked me in the eye sideways and with a loud voice for the hood to hear said "you aaah'right big daag!" and that's how I got the name. (plus one other small factor was that I could bench & curl more than him...)

Yes, I truly believe that the c-j mono's would be a great match. I won't be able to monoblock the MV60SE because they are no longer made. The newer ones that I'm after are the LP125m series, and my long time c-j importer buddy is willing to offer a great price for the pair, plus trade in my MV60SE.
So this is definitely a good deal, whereas the other guys at McIntosh and Audio Research are not willing to do this for me, since they don't have that kind of policy in place...

I was also wondering whether to wait a while longer and go for the top of the line c-j ART mono's. However, I don't think the Quads really need that kind of power.
At the moment they just sing wonderfully with the MV60SE, and the good wife is starting to ask why the necessary upgrade? I have convinced her that the Quads soundstage will just take off to heaven with mono power. So that's cool, but ART mono's would be a no go with her.

Anyway, this should be an interesting ride, will let you know how it goes.
Cheers and have a good one.
RJ

Jazzhead · Mar 2, 2014

LL21 · Mar 2, 2014

On the one hand, insanely cool. On the other hand, I suspect that kind of room needs about 1 TON of acoustic treatment. Talk about glass and slap echo...

Gregadd · Mar 2, 2014

I never owned but listened a lot. My room was to small. IMO not a near field experience.
Good news is I don not think amp choice is critic. Any good 300b will do. It is a hybrid with all the problems that implies. If you have a big room and like orchestra and big band jazz go for it.

experience.

LL21 · Mar 2, 2014

interesting...I don't think these are for me. I have been fine tuning far too much based around my current system to want to reverse course. And it suits me, as I have had the occasional opportunity to hear horns setup by some pretty die-hard fans who are also professionals. Was not for me. On deep house electronics, I did not get the propulsive punch/air movement...and this was with gigantic Cessaro Betas with the big horn sub modules (which by the way were huge and took up too much room for my taste anyway).

Jazzhead · Mar 3, 2014

LL21 · Mar 3, 2014

Lots of toys there...Estelon, Vitus, Metronome Kalista Ref, Cary??, Tidal? Have you heard this? Is this a showroom with all those speakers in the back?

Big Dog RJ · Mar 16, 2014

Interesting pics of Avantgardes & setups. Totally agree on room reflections, both rooms look awfully bright! One would probably get a headache within the first few minutes. Both rooms badly need carpeting and room treatment, or perhaps sitting outside the patio would be better.

An interesting experience last week; My daughter who is now in high school, started on the trombone and will be part of the school jazz band in time to come. She started practicing the other day and I asked to play some notes loud and soft. Then I got hold of some Stan Getz and Brookmayer music and Jay Jay Johnson on sacd and played them for her. She really thought they were in the living room, until the loudest passages could not be surpassed on the real thing as expected. This instrument she was playing was the "absolute sound" un-amplified in the pure sense.

That similar instrument reproduced on the system was so real, you could feel it, and to top it off it was not jarring to the ears at all, even the absolute sound from her trombone was smooth. Then just today one of her best friends came in with her violin, and once again the absolute sound was experienced.
No wonder when the speakers are capable of re-creating the natural tones within a specified scale driven with matching amplification everything just falls into place nicely.

No loud bangs, jarring noises, distortion/hums etc or exaggerated transients, just pure music in its simplest form; and this I haven't heard from Avantgarde horns as yet. Maybe because the amplification simply did not match. Most of the systems demoed were either where the amplification was way too powerful or the horns were over-driven. In the sense people who owned such systems wanted to listen to music really loud, and for what reasons I don't know...
I remember one system having SET amps that delivered just 12 watts by Golden Tube Audio, and this to me was the most bearable so far on horns. Good extension all round, great dynamics and stunning transients, however just didn't have the soundstage and midrange magic of Quad ESL's.

So, now I am sure off the Avantgarde bandwagon, and will stick to my conquest on the upgrade for c-j amplification.
I truly understand that when your system is in synergy, might as well enjoy it and not upset the apple cart.
Enjoy your music gentlemen, and Nicko Rosberg (probably got the name misspelled) just won the Australian Grand Prix here in Melbourne. Albert park was looking nice with those red hot Ferrari's and Merc AMG sports cars, and of course some lovely looking filly's to top it off!

Cheers to all, RJ

LL21 · Mar 16, 2014

Big Dog RJ said:
Interesting pics of Avantgardes & setups. Totally agree on room reflections, both rooms look awfully bright! One would probably get a headache within the first few minutes. Both rooms badly need carpeting and room treatment, or perhaps sitting outside the patio would be better.

An interesting experience last week; My daughter who is now in high school, started on the trombone and will be part of the school jazz band in time to come. She started practicing the other day and I asked to play some notes loud and soft. Then I got hold of some Stan Getz and Brookmayer music and Jay Jay Johnson on sacd and played them for her. She really thought they were in the living room, until the loudest passages could not be surpassed on the real thing as expected. This instrument she was playing was the "absolute sound" un-amplified in the pure sense.

That similar instrument reproduced on the system was so real, you could feel it, and to top it off it was not jarring to the ears at all, even the absolute sound from her trombone was smooth. Then just today one of her best friends came in with her violin, and once again the absolute sound was experienced.
No wonder when the speakers are capable of re-creating the natural tones within a specified scale driven with matching amplification everything just falls into place nicely.

No loud bangs, jarring noises, distortion/hums etc or exaggerated transients, just pure music in its simplest form; and this I haven't heard from Avantgarde horns as yet. Maybe because the amplification simply did not match. Most of the systems demoed were either where the amplification was way too powerful or the horns were over-driven. In the sense people who owned such systems wanted to listen to music really loud, and for what reasons I don't know...
I remember one system having SET amps that delivered just 12 watts by Golden Tube Audio, and this to me was the most bearable so far on horns. Good extension all round, great dynamics and stunning transients, however just didn't have the soundstage and midrange magic of Quad ESL's.

So, now I am sure off the Avantgarde bandwagon, and will stick to my conquest on the upgrade for c-j amplification.
I truly understand that when your system is in synergy, might as well enjoy it and not upset the apple cart.
Enjoy your music gentlemen, and Nicko Rosberg (probably got the name misspelled) just won the Australian Grand Prix here in Melbourne. Albert park was looking nice with those red hot Ferrari's and Merc AMG sports cars, and of course some lovely looking filly's to top it off!

Cheers to all, RJ

Great post!! Congrats on finding your own way thru the situation without spending lots of money and doing a U-turn halfway down the highway. Well done.

I do think once you have found excellent components, then ensuring the rest of the system is doing its very best to match those exceptional components really does make a big difference. Your speakers are definitely in that 'special category' in my opinion, and will respond to more, and higher quality power of the kind you are already using.

I have certainly heard that myself when we were A/B'ing Quads and SF speakers. It was quite remarkable. And the nice thing is if you go with some killer CJ amps...they will be extremely applicable to other speakers if you should choose to go another way some day far down the road. In my own personal experience, I love CJ, Gryphon amplification best, as well as Zanden and Boulder. I have not heard them all and not truly 'tested' them all, but these I not only remember from auditions, but they stuck out in my mind as being part of particularly special sound.

Big Dog RJ · Mar 22, 2014

Appreciate your message,

Yes, I thought this one through; I better not venture off into some area that I'm not used to or not experienced with. Just because something else seemed to excite me either through sound/looks doesn't necessarily mean this new gear would be a good fit, sonically or financially for that matter. Since my Quads got back after the service, plus a complete re-tube on all amps, I am now once again enjoying that lush lively sound.

Now I know for sure that these Quads can elevate to a further level with c-j's top of the line amplification. I have tried many solid state amps but the Quads never really took off by a far margin. Then came along c-j's ART amplifier series, and this is something extraordinary! The stereo version ARTsa which is rated at 140w/ch all premiere standard is simply outstanding! I think a good couple notches above the LP125 series.

What I decided to do was wait awhile, and check out c-j's top of the line offerings. The ARTsa is affordable and is an excellent amplifier, something like the previous Premiere 140.
I strongly believe 140 watts produced from a bank of KT120's will be ample power to drive ESL's.
McIntosh for the moment might definitely excite me with all the solid power and great looks, but then when I listen to the c-j ART amplifiers I'll be kicking myself...

I guess at the end of the day it would be more wise to wait for something special.

Speaking of "U-turns" I have taken so many in the past and had my fingers burnt big time! It's better to learn from these mistakes and make better decisions that would also please the family, specially the wifey. If the wifey ain't happy, then you will not enjoy your music.

Your c-j GAT and Gryphon combination with Wilsons must be very special. I bet it would be extremely hard to better that sound, unless a massive "U-turn" was taken with some serious spending, which you really don't want to do. There are of course smaller expenditures that you could do to better the sound, but this would only be marginal, with no real tangible benefits. The benefits may only be psychological. Once that foundation is built and you find it, you might as well enjoy it!

It would be a real treat to listen to your system, and learn some new experiences from it, but you're not close to Australia! Perhaps one day, who knows...
Cheers and have a good one,
RJ

LL21 · Mar 22, 2014

Big Dog RJ said:
Appreciate your message,

...Now I know for sure that these Quads can elevate to a further level with c-j's top of the line amplification. I have tried many solid state amps but the Quads never really took off by a far margin. Then came along c-j's ART amplifier series, and this is something extraordinary! The stereo version ARTsa which is rated at 140w/ch all premiere standard is simply outstanding! I think a good couple notches above the LP125 series.

What I decided to do was wait awhile, and check out c-j's top of the line offerings. The ARTsa is affordable and is an excellent amplifier...McIntosh for the moment might definitely excite me with all the solid power and great looks, but then when I listen to the c-j ART amplifiers I'll be kicking myself...

Cheers and have a good one,
RJ

Are you going to get the ARTsa? Are you thinking seriously about it?

flez007 · Mar 22, 2014

I owned Avantgarde UNOs and currently helping a friend to set-up his TRIO - I like horn designs (not all), challenge is to keep the cone woofer in line to the very fast, dynamic and revealing behavior of the horns.

bonzo75 · Mar 26, 2014

Hi I have heard the AV Trios and the Duos. The trios are good when paired with a sub, I did not like the duos at all. I wouldn't change from electrostats for them. The best speakers I have heard, horns, are the Tune Audio Animas You will see a review here http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/munich-high-end-2013-show-report/?page=4

and the Cessaros, though these are very expensive http://www.cessaro.de/index_en.html

Big Dog RJ said:
G'day fellas,
Greetings from Melbourne.

Just wondering why there is no section for Avantgarde Horn Speakers?

Well it seems like I will be going around the roller coaster once again. I have paused on the Sonus Faber Elipsa Red's for a while, ( I was talked out of it)...
They are still gorgeous speakers to just look at...

Although I really don't like horns much compared to the seductive sound of electrostats, I figured that most horn systems I have heard are either driven with high powered tube amps or ss state amps exceeding 300 watts. The last time I had experience with Avantgarde Duo's and the Trio Classico, they were driven with 400 watt tube monoblocks from Melos (no longer made). After a few years the owner got rid of the Melos monsters and drove them with SET amps from Cary audio (just 18 watts). Then I realised that I do have mid-power amps with just 60 watts, and may go for a MC275 having just 70 watts. I listened to one system where the horns can be tamed, without that massive after ring tone that hurts your ears...

If powered just right, then the sound off Avantgardes can be truly special because they already have 250 watt built-in ss amps for the subs. All that is required is something of just 10 watts for the mid/highs.

Has anyone here had experience with the Duo series? I am seriously considering these, and the great news is that the Australian importer/service centre is located in Melbourne! close to my town.

Let me know your thoughts/suggestions on the Avantgardes, and anything I should know before I make a decision. I will be going for a demo next week, and will have an extensive listen to all models, including the Trio's.

Cheers, RJ

Big Dog RJ · Mar 29, 2014

LL21 said:
Are you going to get the ARTsa? Are you thinking seriously about it?

Yes mate I am.

Back in 2005 I missed the awesome Premier 140 from c-j. But then I did not have ESL's, rather it was a series of dynamic driver types that never gave me full enjoyment until I ventured back to ribbons and electrostats (another U-turn).
I truly believe the time has come to have a serious look at c-j's new ART series. I think these amplifiers are very special to have, and match so well with electrostats the synergy is something extraordinary, just like Lew Johnson said many years ago.

Therefore, I am in no rush to go for monoblocks or that sort; the ARTsa is also fairly affordable (compared to ultra high-end prices). At the moment I cannot think of an amplifier that can truly beat its price vs performance ratio.
This is going to be one hec of an amplifier in the "state of the art" category, and will definitely set the standard for "reference series".

Just a few years back, I did audition the ARC Ref 150 and thought this to be the state of the art with the new KT120's. I was so excited; But the ref 150 is not even close to the musicality & soundstage presence of the ARTsa. The Ref 150 does have ample power and all the goodies of KT120 tubes. However, when you experience the ARTsa in all it's glory, you will understand what reference sound is all about.

When I'm ready, I will be fully charged ready, and one thing for sure is the ARTsa will not disappoint.
Any thoughts or suggestions are most welcome.
Cheers, RJ

LL21 · Mar 29, 2014

I say go for it. I feel sure that Myles will also support as he has CJ ARTs with his panels as well. I have had CJ in my system consecutively since 2000 and am happy. The CJ sound has had an evolution that was a bit uneven...like many others...but I really like this latest generation. I have not heard your ARTs but if it sounds anything like the GAT...I am already a big fan then. Good luck and pls post when it arrives! What is your ETA on getting it?

marslo · May 2, 2014

Tbzc said:
Hi,

I have been using Avantgarde Duo G2 for couple of years. Before them I have used many dynamic speakers and solid state amps, using speakers like b&w, sonus faber, raidho, harbeth and amps like pass, bat... I actually have sworn that I will never use horns and tubes at that time. But times change... I do think that Avantgarde horns can be your ultimate listening experience but you need to consider the following issues:

A) Amps: I have tried/owned many amps with my horns (pass, tom evans, leben, bat, audio note, lfd...) and in my opinion Avantgarde do need tube amps to get the best out of them. At the moment I am listening to the newest ayon crossfire iii and I am totally thrilled - I have never heard so homogenous, organic and lifelike music in my life. Also my experience with audio note jinro is very good. But you need to consider three important things when choosing the right amp: although horns have very high sensitivity and you can drive them with very little amps, they do need 20-30 high quality tube watts in order to maintain their amazing dynamics; noise (hum and hiss) is an issue therefore test the amp before buying. Noise can be many times omitted by tube selection, hum can be much bigger issue; gain structure of the amp is important in oder to be able to fully use the volume control. If the gain is too high you will be able to use only very little window of the volume control and music will be too loud right from the beginning...

B) speaker and listening position: be sure to be able to sit at least 3,5 m from the speakers. Although they have a sealed sub with many setting I have found they sound best if they have some space to breath: at least 0,75m from back wall and 1m from side wall. The speaker should be toed in to the listening position.

C) crossover adjustment: try to set the crossover between mid horn and active bass as low as possible in order to omit fuzziness and to find seamless transition between sub and horns. Good start according to my experience is low cut, freq = 5-6, volume =6-7 of sub settings. Try to fine tune by ear with female voices. I do this with norah jones but settings can vary with different rooms and amps... But the most important learning: rather seamless integration between sub and horn can be achieved!

D) wires between horn and sub do make difference and can influence the sound in a rather dramatic way. Also every other fine tuning in terms of speaker wires, power cords, cones etc can be very easily heard through these speakers. So, do experiment with this in final stage...

Hope this helps...

Kind regards, T

Hi Tbzc,

I have been reading WBF for few month and I decided to register just to share with you that I have Duo Omega G2 with Ayon Crossfire in my system for last 4 years. Since the beginning of 2013 this is the III version of Crossfire which is imo the prefect match with Avantgarde speakers, at least for tube lovers.
I tried many others amps like Arc Ref 150, Avantgarde XA combo or ASR Emitter II among others and I am of the oppinion that Avantgarde sounds best with SET amplification.
The sources are Aurender W20 / Audio Aero La Fontaine DAC and Transrotor Fat Bob with SME V tonearm and Phase Tech P3G cartrigde.

rgds
m

Big Dog RJ · May 2, 2014

G'day mate,

Yes agreed! Avantgardes do definitely sound far better with carefully matched SET amplifiers. No doubt the many times I have experienced them and also helped a friend many years ago to set up his duos and Omega trio classico's, all of his amplification were SET designed. From Cary to Golden Audio to Manley, and then back again to Cary SET limited edition, these were the best match. As I said before the owner's who weren't satisfied with their Avantgardes was mainly because they're amplification was over-powered. Hence, extra hum, hiss and unwanted noise that they couldn't get rid of due to very high efficiency.

I bet your Ayon's must be fantastic with the Duo's.
Enjoy that music,
Cheers, RJ

marslo · May 3, 2014

Big Dog RJ,

It is mate

Moreover it has high WAF and that matters - my gear is in large living room with a nice view .

Big Dog RJ · May 4, 2014

Hi there,

Nice photos of your gear, where are the Duo's and what brand is that CD player? The Ayon looks fantastic! Is the Ayon an integrated? because I was looking for the preamp... Keeping it simple is definitely the best way to go.

Yes, good to hear that the Duo's are in a large living room so that they don't hurt your ears. Almost every horn speaker type I have listened to were placed in an incorrect room. The dynamics were so stunning that after a few minutes you really want to leave. Some horns I did like though were the Klipsch Horns driven with very golden audio SET amps (just 8 watts).

Another nice horn setup is with Keith W on this forum. He has the Acapella's that are well balanced with two subs and a complex crossover. Driven by Cary class A monoblocks. He has taken the entire system apart to re-build the low frequency drivers and has achieved a fantastic playback system. However, he does like to blast out more often than required, I really don't listen to music that loud. What I am after is the absolute sound un-plugged and un-amplified. The pure instrument in it's most natural state. Small jazz ensembles and R&B is what I'm after. Hence, the Quads do that for me.

Nice set up mate, enjoy your music and look after that Ayon, very special amp to have.

marslo · May 4, 2014

Big Dog RJ said:
Hi there,

Nice photos of your gear, where are the Duo's and what brand is that CD player? The Ayon looks fantastic! Is the Ayon an integrated? because I was looking for the preamp... Keeping it simple is definitely the best way to go.

Yes, good to hear that the Duo's are in a large living room so that they don't hurt your ears. Almost every horn speaker type I have listened to were placed in an incorrect room. The dynamics were so stunning that after a few minutes you really want to leave. Some horns I did like though were the Klipsch Horns driven with very golden audio SET amps (just 8 watts).

Another nice horn setup is with Keith W on this forum. He has the Acapella's that are well balanced with two subs and a complex crossover. Driven by Cary class A monoblocks. He has taken the entire system apart to re-build the low frequency drivers and has achieved a fantastic playback system. However, he does like to blast out more often than required, I really don't listen to music that loud. What I am after is the absolute sound un-plugged and un-amplified. The pure instrument in it's most natural state. Small jazz ensembles and R&B is what I'm after. Hence, the Quads do that for me.

Nice set up mate, enjoy your music and look after that Ayon, very special amp to have.

Hi Big

Yes ,Crossfire III is an integrated SET , based on Ayon's 62 B tube, produced in small Ayon's own factory in Czechia .
Because my gear is in large living room , I wanted to keep it as simple as possible( still, it's only a stereo

). I wanted it also to be versatile - I can play vinyls, cds and files , 2xDSD including. And to look great.
My main player/Dac is Audio Aero La Fontaine with Esoteric cd/sacd mechanism but it does not play dsd files. For this I recently bought an Auralic Vega which has the best price/sq ratio I experienced with modern DACs ( pls have a look at "about me "). I have nearly 2 TB of music ( around 1600 albums ) and over 200 of them are hires and DSD. My preferences go for jazz and classical, like very much a capella singing ( Take 6 as an example )
The SQ of computer based music is very high due to Aurender W20 in my setup and in my opinion it outperform cds.
I saw Keith W setup with Acapellas, impressive indeed but to bulky for my room.
The living room is ca 100 sqm with a nice view , pls find some more photos.
As I consider the upgrade to Duo Grosso or Mezzo, anyone here could suggest what would be better for my setup ?
rgds
Mariusz

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